In my opinion, if the game material doesn’t acknowledge it, then I think it functionally doesn’t matter. The only thing there is the Genn attack Saurfang muses about, but the last thing the players saw of Sylvanas was of her trying to subjugate an angel before the heroic werewolf saves the day and rescues it.
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Which thank god Blizz buries every ounce of “maybe” grey for the Alliance in books so only a tiny fraction will read it. Can’t tarnish those flawless paragons of every conceivable moral virtue for even a second. Having flaws = Evil in this franchise, and thus having flaws is the Horde races things. Truly, Anduin Wrynn is the perfect representative of the current incarnation of the Alliance Faction.
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Yes.
That is what I am saying for the last billion posts.
Thanks for catching up finally.
Though, I do suppose it depends on what angle you’re looking at with “failure” too.
As a Faction Blizz is failing at basic storytelling with the Horde. As a convenient plot-device to do whatever the hell they want with; damned the consequences. It does that job pretty decently. They get to have their WC2 Horde fun without learning the lessons of that Horde, to ensure the Horde sets up a future villain and future expac, then get to use the WC3 Horde themes to “save” the faction. Before running off to another dimension again to avoid the consequences of all that. They truly are having their cake and eating it too here. No wonder they “love to write the Horde”. The Horde is their feces coated sandbox.
They get all the fun of the Old Hordes’, and get to avoid actually writing or rebuilding the WC3 Horde they don’t seem overly fond of. While setting up their next stories, and creating the perfect excuse to make the Horde Faction submissive side kicks to the real heroes from now on. Its a Win, Win, Win, Win.
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Its all in the framing and presentation.
Each time the Horde gets attacked by the Alliance they pretty much destroy the Alliance in their immediate retaliation.
The Horde has very little in their book of grudges that remains unaddressed. And that is the problem because there is no debt to settle. Saurfang is an old soldier, he knows how bloody the past is with the Alliance and his intent of not doing it again.
It would have been sympathetic if saw him trying to resolve this diplomatically than start another war.
Perhaps Sylvanas starts the war anyway without his consent but he is honorbound to help anyway.
That would have been a better story for Saurfang in my opinion.
But any of that would mean the Horde’s Faction Identity would have to be considered in any way … and that might get in the way of the Faction being used as a vehicle and plot-device for Sylvie to settup SLs. Its the same reason why Teld was completely written out of the Horde side of BfA … because it would have been inconvenient for Sylvanas and her story if the Horde was allowed to react to it.
Horde Faction Identity and Horde Pride is something for the Cinematics and Advertisements. Not for the actual story if it gets in the way. For the story, we’re a plot-device first. A faction second.
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Everything you just described could be summarized into one statement.
Blizzard did not do their due diligence to make sure every entity had good motivation to allow the Sylvanas SL setup to work. If Blizzard had a competent writer writing their big arcs then there is no doubt in my mind there would be ample reasoning… or as you folks like to call it excuses and whitewashing for everyone involved without perverting their identity or dooming them to inaction so the bad guy can get away with their idiotic plan.
Whoa there champ! Now I know this post is a week late, trying to keep up with this thread is like trying to chase down a car not slowing down. (I’m still in the 2100 post area) but Garithos, and therefore the racism involved had absolutely nothing to with blood elves joining Horde. Which I swear when Belves were first announced Horde in the original BC posters, it had everything to do with Garithos. Guess my mind played tricks on me, including thousands of other players because it made sense that Garithos and his crew had something to do with it. Can’t have Alliance have any stain amirite? Honestly it feels like Blizzard is removing Garithos from history, he is very barely mentioned at all, including when Anduin listed off Alliance shares of problems to Saurfang.
Wasn’t it stated somewhere that Garithos’ racism was justified because of Quel’thalas leaving the Alliance, when they owed the Alliance big time for saving their kingdom during the second war? It’s also crazy that Garithos and his crew happened to be the only group that was racist against the Elves that came from Quel’Thalas, the Silver Covenant being part of the Alliance proves this. Any and all racism in the Alliance is either eradicated or justified at this point, which is a huge scary thought.
When the Belves first joined the Horde, I was totally on board, it was an awesome concept. Elves that were genocided, and lost everything doing anything as a means to just even have a safe sleep for one night, let alone survive. Also never get to see when a group of pretty elves fighting side by side with monstrous creatures, there is no other fantasy genre that has done that, none that I can think of. Top it all, it was karma for the Alliance. The Alliance killed the Forsaken diplomats, the same Forsaken faction that is closest to Quel’Thalas. The Belves had no choice but to join the Forsaken, it wouldn’t take much for the Forsaken and Horde to push out the Belves from their homes. No Forsaken, no Quel’thalas, it was delicious Karma for the Alliance actions in Vanilla.
We’d also get Kael’thas! Who had arguably the most awesome WC3 campaign. A prince trying to save his people, struggled just to survive, was the underdog of the story, led them to Outland, and tried to fight the Scourge that destroyed his people. OH WAIT! He is villain batted and we just get a made up ranger character? Why? Why didn’t we get an awesome iconic hero? then it started going down hill fast from there. No Kael’thas, Belves are revealed to steal Draenei ships, then they get their Sunwell restored by the same Draenei. Now they’re just pointed eared humans who worship the light instead of siphoning it. This proved Horde can’t get nice things.
On top of that BC was where all story problems started. A lot of villain batting. Belves came out as vampiric mana ship stealing evil-doers that needed to be cleansed by the super nice passive victimized Alliance side Draenei. The whole Draenei story just felt like Blizzard making this “How could the Horde ever kick these poor Draenei down? They’re so nice!” (Kick the dog story trope) players say Horde started becoming villains at Cata, no it started at BC. Even when Belves were recruited it was more of them being held at gun point by the Forsaken, a fact exploited in WotLK. Not becuase of racism that Garithos and his goons committed.
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Better late than never. Another step on the road to 3k.
Saurfang himself said that he doesn’t know how to explain to his own soldiers what they did after the Horde soldiers stood in front of the burning tree yelling and screaming. (like a celebration)
I don’t think they all knew what Sylvanas was up to, but they didn’t mind either. This statement says a lot about the morale of the horde, that their own leader has to explain it to THEM first.
Then further, the Forsaken in Darkshore were very much involved in the genocide that was delayed afterwards and the mass killing continued even before Tyrande returned.
It’s not as simple as you make it out to be, that’s the problem, all those things the Horde did are war crimes in their own right and a bankrupt declaration of morality. Every single one of these things warrants consequences of a deadly nature.
And you’re the best person to determine what that is? The person who just admitted to not liking Night Elves? Or maybe it’s Night Elf fans who are. Since they actually have an investment in them. We want the savagery back.
This doesn’t apply to Night Elves. It applies to Nightborne. That’s their fantasy. Night Elves have done nothing but struggle and strive since the Well imploded. Nightborne snuggled into their plot armor bubble and got nice n’ cozy.
Humans, Dwarves, and Gnomes all descend from Titans. As do the Orcs. It’s not the fault of the Gods they were created by that they chose to worship a school of magic or in the Orc’s case some elementals.
You mean Human Paladins with an unhealthy appreciation for Blanduin Boy King of Peace. I’ll take being called a murderer by some NPCs I couldn’t give a toss about like the Horde does if it means I finally get to do something.
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Neither of them. One indulges the other at night and the other likes too much. A neutral observer who is truly neutral would be much better at creating a fair consensus.
I understand any rage from the night elf community but I dare not say you know best what is really good for the game _AND your race, because in rage you do things or want to do things that would by no means be something that really creates an improvement.
That’s not true, they were the only ones who repeatedly fought the Legion, fought the Silithids, eradicated Old God corruption, healed the world. No other race have singlehandeled this things, the night elfs only “struggle”, most other races would simply fail, if they tried this alone.
The Night Elves have done the most for this world of all the mortal races, they are - if I leave aside the Titanforged Heritage of the Humans, Dwarves and Gnomes - the race that is most deeply anchored to the entire story.
The Legion did not take any race on Azeroth seriously as a threat, with the exception of the Night Elves. That says enough about them.
True, they have many “blessings”, but they also fought some of the greatest battles this world has ever seen.
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I mean yeah, it is funny that is is mainly the ones who play a paladin that have that mentality. Wasn’t trying to paint everyone like that, just there are people who we all know would overreact if there was a slight bit of grey in the alliance.
And that’s fine, blizzards problem is they simply won’t just let the alliance act on their laundry list of justifications against the horde, they always have to make the horde the aggressors first. Which is just dumb in my eyes
Yes the Night Elves have struggled and strived against many foes. If they were “Born to Greatness” and “Born Special” they’d have chilled out in a bubble for ten thousand years and then have all there woes hand waved away with the lion’s share of the effort in doing so donated to them by a faction they would later betray and suffering no consequences for doing so.
You know, the other peoples couldn’t have done on their own what the night elves did, that’s the difference.
Other peoples would have failed that challenge. The Worgen plague and the War of Sartyrs, for example, almost wiped out all of Kalimdor, it threatened to become a second war of the ancestors, that’s the extent of it, and the night elves handled it, no other race could have.
This is what is meant by born to greatness, they accomplish things that other races could not even dream of on their own.In order to explain this “position”, they get divine help, buffs, wild gods, dragonaspects, things like that.
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Gorgest, I enjoyed your post, but I’m confused about what you wanted Belves to be. First you lament the fact that they’re not siphoning the Light, which is edgy and “morally grey”—especially under the BC-era view of the Light as a force for objective good—but then you also are unhappy that the Belves are presented as “vampiric ship-stealing evil-doers.” Can you provide more context?
I sometimres feel ashamed for maining Horde and playing a troll
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It’s the martial prowess and focused rage that enemies of the horde fear and seek to control.
First the Legion, which the Horde broke free of…
Second, the Humans but the Horde freed themselves from that captivity…
The scourge tried to absorb the Horde, and we’ll say hi to Arthas at some point in the Shadowlands…
Third, the Old Gods, but the Horde have a habit of killing those guys…
Then Death tried with Muzalah and Sylvanas, and we can see how that’s working out so far. Just ask Denathrius.
If you want to know what the Horde’s identity is, it’s a repudiation of fate and destiny. At every turn, some big bad has come along and tried to control the Horde and focus it’s rage and power, and they all eventually fail.
If the Alliance represents an embrace of faith, then the Horde represents the embrace Free Will and self determination. We are more than our history.
Anduin offered an army to Calia to conquer Lordaeron. So…
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And my heart breaks for you. Like I said, I look back at the WC 3 horde I fell in love with and the horde now…and I don’t recognize any of it. It’s been so gutted and dragged through the mud that it legitimately upsets me if I dwell on it.
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