Pancake. Again brick walls. Not monoliths, but crushed hard-to-read walls.
Again, thatâs not really for Alliance players. I certainly think that we should have quests that portray this character as being dark for them of course - but the real point of this is for the Hordeâs motivation. Again, I think the questions of what it would take for the Alliance to accept the Horde tend to go down the road of humiliating displays of penance and I just donât think that would be very good content for the Horde.
âThanks, Anduin.â
- Saurfang (probably)
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Wait⊠that structure of posting does resemble pancakesâŠ
Shoots a look at Gantrithor
YOU did this!
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Relaxing Intermission Time
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First off, Iâd like to just say that Churchs > Popeyes
Even though youâre so gosh awfully worried about Anduin being someoneâs pet character, thatâs being foisted upon you, which idc if he is or w/e, youâre missing the total point of why he had to be there, and spending your time baffled that he was there for your further amusement as the Boy King to a Horde player.
Saurfang is the character youâre meant to enjoy at the end, standing before Orgrimmar. I guess you could have also enjoyed Thrall for his input into the story, of standing around gawking while someone actually does something. So Anduin invalidates Saurfang, by presence alone, and that means it doesnât suit your high narrative standards? The ones I can only assume youâve developed from watching all this high drama anime youâre referencing further down.
If Anduin is âbasicallyâ the military leader of the Alliance, what are you not understanding about him needing any knowledge of Horde culture? Heâs prancing around inside Orgrimmar, he won, all over the Horde heros, and congratulations. Referencing Horde players who enjoy character growth, and then talking about Orgrimmar luddites opinions on Anduinâs speech, or not wanting him to be there? 
I ask you not to bring real world political figures into this. So you then accuse me of wanting to throw out all real world standards, and politics⊠So you can try to twist my arm into saying I shouldnât care about Teldrassil⊠Well, whatever. I always knew Genn was right in Stormheim, even when I had to wade through a lake of Horde tears about how that was some kinda No.1 caliber warcrime that meant the dismantling of the Alliance or w/e, anyone with half of brain knew Sylvanas was evil, thatâs why Iâm sure most of the Horde stood behind her in game, and meta to this day.
You donât like Anduin, I get it. I donât particularly like him either, but I still enjoy the various stories in game.
Because his presence IS worthless in the story
Oh yeah, because youâre not even worried about the Alliance having input into things that happen to them. Right. When Horde players say boy king, and Alliance players say boy king. Keep in mind, the Horde relished getting to say it, until he got to stomp around inside their capital. But, I can tell youâre very bothered about the blondie, blue teenager messing up the ideals of your Orgrimmar luddites. Not the people who are just âundulating in moral absolutismâ. You can like the Horde, Iâm not saying you canât.
Anduin should have sent Genn. Omg, please. I wish Genn could have crossed his arms, and watched Saurfang die. Then as Thrall is belintg out his schpiel, Genn can be doing doughnuts in the Valley of WIsdom, jump a monster truck over Saurfangâs corpse and land on the Horde PC (So there can be hostilities). Then he can hand Thrall the bill, and tell him your welcome, we just needed a cameo.
You keep referencing absolute moral goodness, but I never needed a boy king, and I know who did⊠Itâs not absolute moral goodness that I prefer Churchs, and just because itâs named that doesnât mean I am holding who enjoy Popeyes to a lower religious standard, and idk why you even think that. Anduin is just the Alliance person we got to see at the end of Orgrimmar, in my opinon, because Genn leaving a tire-mark on the Horde PCâs face to kindle something would have been to spicy. I doubt theyâre going to keep Tyrande mad at the Horde through one means or the other, so I never would have imagined her standing to the side, or especially speaking to anyone in the red faction about trust.
I can like Popeyes as much as Churchs, they have livers that Churchs doesnât even sell, but youâre the one who feels some kind of pressure from the fried chicken joint, and appear to only want to eat at one restaurant because of it. I guess Iâm wrong for not expecting home cooking from a place with a drive-thru. Excuse me.
I think the thing NE fans in particular arenât getting is this, regardless of the scenario, the horde, defensive or not, would still be beating up on genocide survivors, which still ends up making us the monsters. So we would be right back to square one, which is trying undo that stain without making it WORSE than it already is.
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If that was the problem Darkshore already made Horde into monsters so might as well right?
The problem stems from the massive imbalance Blizz has created in this conflict.
Part of the whole âforcing the faction not allowed motives, let alone valid ones, to be the aggressor and do something horribleâ ⊠while the races with all the motives in the world never can be ⊠thing. The Alliance, and the NEs in particular have a THOUSAND reasons to want to beat up on the Horde. Want to find some semblance of resolution to their laundry list of grievances. But, they canât actually do that without the Hordeâs involvement, and the Horde has no way to be involved without being portrayed very negatively.
So we find ourselves in this weird situation where the Horde cannot act in the Faction Conflict even enough to give the NE and Alliance fans an outlet for their unresolved issues. Because we will be portrayed in a negative light, it will be us âbeating up our victimsâ more. To frustrate this more are those select Alliance and NE fans who are super non-committal on this aggression ⊠always leaving a back door to reclaim Moral Absolutism (or expecting moral absolutism to be maintained). Not all, but enough to make things harder.
I mean, the obvious answer to this issue is just to allow those Alliance with all the motives and all the grievances to actually act on them for once. While the Horde (who has little to none of either) is put on the defensive for a while. Fully commit to Alliance aggression, and let them let loose. Let in the grey. Leave openings for mistakes, with lasting consequences for themselves as well as the Horde. To get their hands seriously dirty. But for some frustrating reason ⊠that easy option is not acceptable?
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It should be super easy to do. Let the alliance go a little to far with their revenge. But like I know you mentioned plenty of times now, 1) the alliance fan base would blow a blood vessel if they arenât allowed to be the most angelic of white knights and 2) For some reason, alliance aggression is usually walked back and buried under some stupid justification, so the horde ends up getting blamed for it.
I sometimes wonder if there is even a way to undo the catastrophic damage blizzard rather maliciously did to the horde and the horde fan base. 
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Quite frankly, trying to continue the Faction Conflict in ANY way whilst the Alliance continues to retain Moral Absolutism is a recipe for disaster. Even their own few grey acts Blizz goes way out of their way to bury or excuse to keep that pristine flawless shine. And while some Alliance players may disagree, on a functional writing level part of the reason the Horde has to be SO grey and SO flawed ⊠is because the Alliance arenât allowed to be either. And the reason the Horde antagonism (especially in BfA) isnât allowed to have motives for it (let alone valid ones), is because to do so would mean the Alliance might have to do something antagonistic to justify Horde antagonism. And they canât have that, being antagonistic is not a virtue.
This is why you see that nonsense like what we saw in Silithus with SI:7. Where Blizz, in a book, writes an invalidation for an Alliance military operation slaughtering Horde civilians through the kidnapping of Sapphretta from the Explorerâs League. But then Blizz realized later that the timetable didnât line up, and retconned it have the Bilgewater attack the EL for a âfirstâ time ⊠with no other excuse beyond âtheyâre Goblinsâ. Then had them attack again with the initial kidnapping. They do this constantly. Which is why like Stormheim, what should have constituted a clear act of war against the Horde in Silithus ⊠was handwaved away. Because it HAD to be the Horde that started it. It CAN NOT be the Alliance.
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I love this idea youâve listed of allowing the Alliance to do something a little to fair. That sounds about right. Instead of ever being allowed to outright do anything to the Horde, they horde have to be dropped to a pathetic level, so that they can reason out everything theyâve felt empowered to do in the past, and were wrong about.
To be fair, Kyalin is trying to create such a scenario in which the Night Elves, in their quest for revenge, do something bad enough that it gets the Horde players to want to fight back.
The problem is⊠What could they possibly do that would seem like an overreaction compared to Teldrassil?
Kyalin feels targeting civilians and a well liked innocent character should be sufficient.
I personally donât think it is, and most Horde posters here agree with that assessment. Killing civilians is always wrong, but from an out-of-universe score board kind of mentality it is a drop in the bucket compared to what the night elves have suffered. Therefore the Horde deserve it.
That is the threshold Kyalin needs to try and reach. A point that both will make Horde players go âHey now, that is way out of lineâ without ALSO making them go âThis game is hot garbage and I am leavingâ. It is a difficult tightrope to balance.
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Sigh ⊠she also leaves that Back Door open for Moral Purity as well. Because she centers the entire âHorde Motivationâ and conflict on a radical sect of NE victims killing Horde civilians. Which means that the Alliance Faction still easily has a way to disassociate from them once theyâve had their fun; and return to that picturesque, sterile white shine. To return to that purity test. Even the NEs themselves, being genocide survivors, leaves the door open for Blizz to do what they always feel compelled to do ⊠and rush in an whitewash their actions. Should they feel it necessary to do so. Which they always will.
That scenario is a recipe for disaster for the Horde and any attempt to rebuild as long as the writing philosophies of the writers with how to approach the factions remains as it is.
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Blizzard could make more Horde characters into monsters. That would help redeem them just like it did with Garrosh, and Sylvanas lol.
This would be funny if it werenât so true âŠ
I am not even convinced they wont validate and whitewash the actual systemic cultural genocide perpetrators the Lightbound if they show up again. Or villainize its victims in the AU Magâhar. Genocide is a good thing as long as its an Alliance race doing it. I seriously am concerned weâve hit that level of blind black and white morality between how they write the Factions.
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I agree, but it just feels like any sort of aggression from the horde is just Oh look, theyâre beating up on their victims again. As many of us already mentioned, it may be simply impossible given how the horde was written during BfA, because any action the alliance takes is 100% justified and they have a lot to be angry about.
Blizzard wrote us into a corner on this one and there may be no way out of it this time around.
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Well, itâs not like the Alliance have ever been allowed to return fire. Any act of retribution wonât work, because the Horde might actually feel like they deserved it. So weâve come to this grinding hault of logic, where the Alliance have had to forgive the Horde for the umptenth genocide, instead of putting them through a single sleight when it would have made sense. But, that has nothing to do with this diaper full of âRevelingâ people continue to make up, I guess so they can sleep at night.
I donât think a single Horde player on here cares if you guys gets your shots in. We want you to, its long overdue. We just canât afford to let you have actual rep kills (because we have literally no-one left for each PC race), and weâre all genuinely afraid that should Blizz allow the Alliance to let loose ⊠Blizzâs writing team will do something to further villainize the Horde ⊠while maintaining that flawless purity test of perfect moral virtue intact on the Alliance. Which ⊠with the current writing team ⊠is way too possible.
Because, frankly, in an Alliance aggression story the only real benefit the Horde gets is prospective character development for its reps and council. Both of which are very underdeveloped, untested, and frankly underpowered. It would also let us be âthe victimsâ for once, no matter how deserving we are of it ⊠and with the right hook, could usher in a Big Bad on the Allianceâs dime for once. Even accidentally. But, for that moral absolutism to be maintained ⊠thatâs just the Alliance players wanting their power fantasy re-established. This is why so many people were upset with your idea to villain bat Geya-rah, despite her going on a Draenei killing spree would screw her allies sheâs totally dependent on ⊠and damned her surviving people. Because it was just an excuse to reinforce the Allianceâs Moral Purity test WHILE also getting their hits in. Which ⊠far too often seems the true goal. Reassert our dominance, but maintain our flawlessness.
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Indeed. Which is why the only way to really redeem the Horde is what I suggested an absolute eternity ago on page 92 of this thread.
The Horde needs to be retroactively made into heroes that are instrumental in the defense of Azeroth. A force that, were it not to exist, Sargeras would have rolled over the Alliance and conquered Azeroth and brought on the destruction of the universe.
The entire premise of the game is that both factions need to exist for Azeroth to survive. Blizzard has been majorly dropping the ball in showing this to be true the last several expansions to the point one could be forgiven if they saw the Horde as a malignant force that was actively kneecapping the real heroes of the story every chance they got.
Because⊠Yah. That is the story Blizzard has been giving us.
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