How can we redeem/rebuild the Horde?

[Ariël-drakkari (Ariël)]

@Kyalin-cenarion-circle

Regarding block one - you’re framing this in relation to what Alliance players think. I again assert that it doesn’t matter. It matters that Horde players identify with them.

Players hardly “took pride” over the Stillwater issue… as a matter of fact most people remember the quest for the parody sides of it A.K.A. “Jenny”.

Which defeats the point of your scenario -you still haven´t convinced us why should we bother with Irrelevant Orc No. 65465461642315…

@Kyalin-cenarion-circle

Your second block is assuming that alternatives like that didn’t exist before.

Irrelevant, fact is, there´s no actual statistical study done regarding WoW in which the conclussion reached by analysis of the data validates your hypothesis. Your opinion conclusing the faction conflict story being the reason why people stopped playing WoW is nothing but that: your personal hypothesis, nothing more and nothing less.

Feel free to conduct an actual scientifically and statistically valid study to find the actual reason for mthe mythical “death of WoW as a viable MMO” in the market, until then: nice tinfoil opinion, but I disagree, period.

@Shernish-nazjatar

So you need an expansion in which the Horde does not interact with the Alliance? Or an eternity of lack of interaction?

An eternity, please. I think 15+ years of having to coddle Brann and the Kirin Tor and druidism as deffined by Malfurion only and so on is enough of me babysitting Alliance flavored stuff at the harsh cost of negligence to my own Horde stuff, tyvm.

I´m done with Alliance and how interaction between Horde / Alliance ruined my faction, so… off they go!! Let´s make this the worst divorce in the history of MMOs and end with the faction conflict circus at all. Bonus point in which spats done between players from the factions will most surely disappear considering there won´t be any interaction whatsoever between them apart from general gameplay (let´s make merc mode available for EVERYTHING if we must and call it a day).

[Shernish-nazjatar]

Alternatively, would you like an expansion that offers a peaceful and epic version at the start? With the second, everything is clear - factions, cosmology, fate and all that. In the first, you will conduct raids on the murloc settlements that have stolen food (?), Fight with local manifestations of cosmic evil, like heralds of the Abyss, botany, some creatures of the Light and all that. With quests like, problems should not arise either, replacing dialogues and NPCs, depending on the mode … It seems feasible. Expensive but doable. You will represent an ordinary farmhand building an outpost in the middle of the Nether plane.

Hmm. We need to look at the plot in order to come up with “peaceful” quests later.

[Ariël-drakkari (Ariël)]

@Shernish-nazjatar

Alternatively, would you like an expansion that offers a peaceful and epic version at the start?

Nah, I jusdt want my very own, independent approach to the FOTM cosmic menace with no chance of Alliance involvement EVER.

Expensive yes, but frankly much better for both factions. Maybe this time around the people writting the lore can actually writer coherently for once considering they don´t have to care over useless artificial conflict they forgot 2 min ago…

[Kyalin-cenarion-circle (Kyalin)]

Regarding block 1 - That’s going to depend on the characters.

Regarding block 2 - Your objection is a flaw based in your failure to appreciate the impact of incremental change. I can’t teach microeconomics to you - so I will simply suggest that you take a class to understand that frame of thinking.

[Ariël-drakkari (Ariël)]

@Kyalin-cenarion-circle

Regarding block 1 - That’s going to depend on the characters.

Calia says “Hi”… I mean she´s apparently thye nustandard for Horde character development.

See why is it better to NOT having any involvemenmt whatsoever? No Alliance involvement, no need to implement the Alliance flavored replacement for a Horde racial leader when nobody asked for this in the Horde playerbase in the first place…

@Kyalin-cenarion-circle

Regarding block 2 - Your objection is a flaw based in your failure to appreciate the impact of incremental change.

Dear, as far as I´m concerned applying abarenones microeconomics analysis to a particular case -a company and one of their games- with no analysis of actual real data is but a waste of time.

Take it as you must.

[Kyalin-cenarion-circle (Kyalin)]

Why would you assume that I’m defending Calia? I’m not presuming that you be given Golden inserts. I’m not a monster.

Regarding block 2 - there is no data - and even if I collected it you wouldn’t accept it. I tried this when cataloguing the shocking decrease in Night Elven interest and desire to play between Vanilla and classic - people searched for every explanation in the book to deny what the data made plain as day.

What I mean here though is the basic concept that if a story diminishes in quality, the game is worse for it, ceteris paribus. Or that if faction conflict is portrayed awfully, that drives people away, ceteris paribus. Ceteris paribus is frequently not understood or misunderstood - and I’ve found the attempts to make people understand it fruitless. Same with the use of marginal impacts.

So, I must leave that to the professors.

[Talkaar-wyrmrest-accord]

@Smallioz-kromcrush

Alliance attacks horde with devastating effect.

Horde counter attacks but needs alliance help to stop alliance and gets a pinky promise that Alliance wont attack again.

You know, I’d be kinda okay with that. For once we would have Horde helping Alliance kill Alliance instead of helping Horde kill Horde.

Though of course, this scenario would likely include an obvious implication of “you had it a long time coming” which would greatly upset some players.

[Zarrín-zuljin]

@Kyalin-cenarion-circle

Why would you assume that I’m defending Calia? I’m not presuming that you be given Golden inserts. I’m not a monster.

Whether you agree or disagree with Kyalin on any topic - you have to admit that’s pretty funny.

Also as to the economics aspect - even if it’s only at the margins (whether it is or not I can’t say) - at some level he’s right. Flatly reducing the quality of an aspect of a product (not restructuring it, but just reducing it) at best costs the product in potential future gains and at worst costs the product in terms of current purchasers (assuming something approaching a free market).

Whether the argument is causal (i.e. gameplay issues cause a drop in purchases such that hiring/keeping competent writers became too costly therefore the quality of writing dropped) is up for debate. And if it’s not the causal factor, you could argue it’s merely a consequence and not the driving motivator, but it does still play a role.

That’s my limited economics memory (plus some econometrics).

[Smallioz-kromcrush]

Good!

Thats what morally grey means.
Its not supposed to be clear cut good and evil.

You’re welcome America.

[Elluriah-bloodsail-buccaneers]

@Velthyras-deathwing

your primary concern was about making the Night Elves less victimized, rather than helping the Horde be less villainized.

These are both problems that need to be solved. Hello??

@Droité-black-dragonflight

Alliance is not supporting the radicals.

There’s also the third option. The Alliance does support the Night Elves and tells Anduin to get bent.

@Kyalin-cenarion-circle

Again, the point that this is going to hinge on is the characterization. If you can make a character that’s likeable, and then threaten then, you can generate investment to protect them, I feel. Admittedly - this is the hardest part of this question - which is: how do you make the average citizenry of the Horde feel as though they are worth protecting?

I know I’m late to the party but this wouldn’t be hard to do. People will latch onto any character with even a a somewhat redeeming quality or even if they’re just attractive enough. You can see that in WoW with Zappy and Ting Ting. You can also see it outside of WoW with characters like the new 9ft Tall Vampire Lady in Resident Evil: Village.

It’s extremely easy to give people a reason to want to stan even the most mundane characters.

[Velthyras-deathwing]

@Elluriah-bloodsail-buccaneers

@Velthyras-deathwing

your primary concern was about making the Night Elves less victimized, rather than helping the Horde be less villainized.

These are both problems that need to be solved. Hello??

But not at the expense of one another, which is what we got with Battle for Azeroth. Hello??

[Droité-black-dragonflight]

@Elluriah-bloodsail-buccaneers

These are both problems that need to be solved. Hello??

But not ones that can necessarily be solved with the same solution. And certainly not by a solution that threatens to undermine one for the sake of solving the other. Like this Barrens pvp scenario, after over 10 years of how Blizz writes the Horde, would absolutely do. It might give the NEs a chance at reasserting their dominance and power-fantasy (to redon that nonsensical fashion statement that is “NE Savagery”) … but it will still come as the Horde beating on their victims that are deserving of their vengeance.

Rebuilding and “Redeeming” the Horde is already an impossibly tricky tightrope as it is. This scenario will not help. And quite frankly, with how miserable a state the current main Horde roster is … Blizz putting in the necessary work in to build up a character enough for us to feel anything at their death … would feel a tad bit insulting. The Horde is really scraping the bottom of the barrel for developed characters as it is, I’d rather Blizz actually just focus on starting to replace the roster they’ve gutted to the bones.

[Kyalin-cenarion-circle (Kyalin)]

It might give the NEs a chance at reasserting their dominance and power-fantasy (to redon that nonsensical fashion statement that is “NE Savagery”)

I think this is what really sits behind Droite’s objections. It doesn’t matter that the Horde is on the defensive. It doesn’t matter that the scenario would require building up Horde characters and Horde culture with a focus on retaining most of it afterward. It doesn’t matter that the Horde are being portrayed in a moral and sympathetic light. It doesn’t matter that they succeed in what they want to do. It doesn’t matter that I spent way more time considering the Orcish side than I spent laying out the Night Elf side.

What matters here is that the solution addresses a Night Elf concern too - and as we can see from this quote - Droite doesn’t like Night Elves - so we couldn’t have that.

[Velthyras-deathwing]

@Kyalin-cenarion-circle

@Droité-black-dragonflight

It might give the NEs a chance at reasserting their dominance and power-fantasy (to redon that nonsensical fashion statement that is “NE Savagery”)

I think this is what really sits behind Droite’s objections.

It’s absolutely astonishing to me that you have accused me, on several occasions, of “misunderstanding” or “misrepresenting” your points by addressing your argument step-by-step…

…and then proceed to do exactly what you have accused me of, by literally only quoting one line out of the entire comment.

@Kyalin-cenarion-circle

It doesn’t matter that the Horde is on the defensive.

No, it doesn’t, because

@Kyalin-cenarion-circle

the scenario would require building up Horde characters and Horde culture with a focus on retaining most of it afterward. It doesn’t matter that the Horde are being portrayed in a moral and sympathetic light.

this is incorrect; after BfA, it wouldn’t matter if the Horde was on offense or defense. Either way, the general consensus post-Teldrassil would be, “they deserve it.”

There’s nothing about “building up culture,” certainly nothing “sympathetic,” in that.

@Kyalin-cenarion-circle

It doesn’t matter that I spent way more time considering the Orcish side than I spent laying out the Night Elf side.

Well, no, it doesn’t, because nothing you’ve actually said indicates that you have considered the Horde’s point of view.

@Kyalin-cenarion-circle

What matters here is that the solution addresses a Night Elf concern too - and as we can see from this quote - Droite doesn’t like Night Elves - so we couldn’t have that.

There’s that insecurity and refusal of self-reflection again.

“He just doesn’t like my race, that must be the real problem! It’s his fault, not mine!” Yes, because Elune forbid there be anything inherently flawed with your proposal to begin with.

It’s also more than a little mind-boggling that you’ve indicated you understand the real issue here in another topic, but then still fall into this mindset of lifting up the Night Elves at the expense of the Horde…just like how you have (quite rightly) touched on how Humanity has been lifted up at the expense of the Night Elves.

To paraphrase your comment, nothing you’ve proposed is likely to happen because any lasting, stable solution requires us to view the Alliance as anything less than morally-virtuous.

And we can’t have that, apparently.

[Droité-black-dragonflight]

@Kyalin-cenarion-circle

What matters here is that the solution addresses a Night Elf concern too - and as we can see from this quote - Droite doesn’t like Night Elves - so we couldn’t have that.

I don’t like Night Elves no. I’m not going to deny that.

More specifically, I don’t like their playerbases apparent expectations of them. NE Savagery hasn’t been relevant (or even made sense) since the addition of the WotA content. Because it reduced that motif to little more than “Savage by Highborne standards”. As there is no real environmental, cultural, or historical reasons to really support why a “savage” NE should exist. Their guerilla tactics were merely a necessary consequence of who they were fighting against. Little else. But NE players constantly wheel out the “lack of savagery” as some power up equipment that Blizz has unfairly stolen from them.

This however does not prevent me from wanting the best for their stories and their characters. Provided that they do not come at the expense of mine. And I do genuinely feel that this Barrens plan would come at the expense of any attempt to rebuild or redeem my faction and my preferred races; since its primary motive is to fix the NE Power Fantasy and “Give them their fangs back”. Rebuilding the Horde (or the needs required for that) was clearly an afterthought. No matter how much effort you put into that thought.

[Kyalin-cenarion-circle (Kyalin)]

You know what? We can play your game. Let me try some Velthyras-style analysis. See where it leads us.

It’s absolutely astonishing to me

You know, being astonished is super-unhealthy for your brain. You really should consider meditation to bring down your stress levels.

step-by-step

This is another thing - that’s not very good for your joints. If you just need the cardio, you should try an exercise bike. Or even better - get a real bike. You’ll get to be out in the world and the rides are just refreshing.

then proceed to do

So, next up, this is really aggressive and problematic language. It’s like you’re trying to have a fight. It’s like you’re threatening me. You really should tone down what you’re saying. Again, consider meditation and possibly therapy.

Either way, the general consensus post-Teldrassil would be, “they deserve it.”

Well that’s like, your opinion, man.

There’s nothing about “building up culture,” certainly nothing “sympathetic,”

I mean, the tone of your earlier posts suggests that you’re just really angry, and learning more about how you can be a sympathetic person can really help with that. As for culture - I find that learning more about other cultures really helps me appreciate them - especially if you get a chance to visit them yourself.

There’s that insecurity and refusal of self-reflection again.

You know, our conversation has indicated to me that you are suffering from some deep anger issues, and I think you might be seeing in other people what you see in yourself. In a sense, your own words become reflections of your self critiques that you’re turning outward as a cry for help. I know that must be hard to hear, but you really should take some time for your own self-care and mental-well being.

Edit: More serious edit. I am not a mental health professional. This is not mental health advice. This is internet commentary laced with satire, nothing more.

[Droité-black-dragonflight]

Yeah, you need to stop constantly taking my comments as personal attacks. Nor my general dislike for the NEs, because they revel in the type of “Born to Greatness”, and “Born Special” fantasy I’m not fond of. Quite frankly, conceptually, they are the antithesis of what I enjoy in fantasy. A race of thrice blessed perfect, eternal people, in a perfect, eternal civilization, which are expected to remain perfect and eternal. Borne smarter, swifter, stronger, longer lived, and more magically gifted than nearly every other race. And beloved (at least the only race on Azeroth beloved) by the only “Real God” in the entire Warcraft Universe. And none of its earned, its all given. Either by virtue of them living next to a Sea of God’s Blood, or guided and chosen by DemiGods. Or benefiting from the consequences of the misdeads of one of their own.

“Better and MORE Special by Default” seems to be the motif of the NEs. Wild God Trust Fund Kids. And if Blizz didn’t keep beating them up … that is what they would be. And yet, I would like for nothing more than to see the NEs reclaim and cleanse fully every single territory in Northern Kali. To regrow a new World Tree from the husk of Teld, born from the first healthy acorn of the Mother Tree; a sibling of Nord and symbol of healing and rebirth. Or even to see them reinforce their borders in meaningful ways to ensure there is never even an attempt at another invasion again. But … none of that relies on a re-escalation of a Faction Conflict that will always villain bat the Horde. Nor supporting PvP on a story level. Both of those scream of you wanting to reassert your the NE power fantasy, with “rebuilding the Horde” as an afterthought.

[Velthyras-deathwing]

@Kyalin-cenarion-circle

You know what? We can play your game. Let me try some Velthyras-style analysis. See where it leads us…

Ok, except that’s not even remotely what I did with your comments? You’re literally quoting, at most, what, four letters per block?

You’re not presenting comments as an argument for you to refute and counter, you’re just cherry-picking to help yourself feel superior.

Case in point:

@Kyalin-cenarion-circle

@Velthyras-deathwing

and then proceed to do

So, next up, this is really aggressive and problematic language. It’s like you’re trying to have a fight. It’s like you’re threatening me. You really should tone down what you’re saying. Again, consider meditation and possibly therapy.

I’m not even sure where you get “aggressive and problematic language” from quoting this sentence out-of-context.

Also, if you’re going to do this, please learn to quote properly—you literally included my words as a block without attributing me to them. I had to go back up to my original comment because you don’t know how to use basic formatting tools. This is amateur work.

@Kyalin-cenarion-circle

You know, our conversation has indicated to me that you are suffering from some deep anger issues, and I think you might be seeing in other people what you see in yourself.

That’s rather hypocritical, and I have to disagree. Not only do I feel perfectly calm, but I actually would argue that you’re the one projecting here.

I have complete confidence in my own opinions, and have no need to personally attack people who disagree—if someone actually does bring up a point I hadn’t considered, or proves me wrong, sure, I’ll own up to it.

You have not, and the fact that you have now gone on the record as:

1. Accusing me of misquoting/misinterpreting/misrepresenting you
2. Suggesting I have “deep anger issues” and should seek meditation

Kind of verifies my suspicions about your insecurities; like I said, Elune forbid anyone disagree with you—they must be the (stereotypical) “angry person,” because you couldn’t possibly be in the wrong.

Please check your ego at the door.

[Kyalin-cenarion-circle (Kyalin)]

Ok, except that’s not even remotely what I did with your comments? You’re literally quoting, at most, what, four letters per block?

First off, I’m so sorry, sensei. I’ll try harder to make this a completely unreadable mess where I waltz in knowing what I want to say already without taking the time to understand what you wrote in favor of torturing its construction to fit my argument.

You’re not presenting comments as an argument for you to refute and counter

Under your framework, yes. Because block quoting automatically means that it’s analysis. I’m just following your lead here.

you’re just cherry-picking to help yourself feel superior.

Cherry picking? Why would I need to pick cherries? We’ve got a U.S. Foods store right down the road where I can get a five gallon bucket of them!

I’m not even sure where you get “aggressive and problematic language” from quoting this sentence out-of-context.

Keep in mind, when you’re this forceful, you’re being aggressive and problematic. It really again projects those anger issues that we talked about. Once again, I think you should try meditation.

Also, if you’re going to do this, please learn to quote properly —you literally included my words as a block without attributing me to them. I had to go back up to my original comment because you don’t know how to use basic formatting tools. This is amateur work.

You and I both know who I’m replying to! Normally when I switch conversation partners I use the @ symbol to demarcate it.

That’s rather hypocritical, and I have to disagree. Not only do I feel perfectly calm, but I actually would argue that you’re the one projecting here.

Of course you would say that, but again, that’s just denial of your deep-seated anger issues.

I have complete confidence in my own opinions, and have no need to personally attack people who disagree—if someone actually does bring up a point I hadn’t considered, or proves me wrong, sure, I’ll own up to it.

Under no circumstances have I seen you do this though. Instead you tend to plow right through, which when you think about it, is a personification of your own aggression - it’s like a bull - it charges ahead regardless of what’s in front of it!

Advisory: Once again, I am not a mental health professional. This is not mental health advice. This is internet commentary laced with satire, nothing more.

[Pellex-hyjal (Pellex)]

@Kyalin-cenarion-circle

I don’t view slaughtering civilians as justified - and the Silverwing commander is certainly someone I want to paint as appearing to represent a darker, less justifiable figure - as well as her series of raids as evil acts.

Jumping in a little late, but I don’t think that will work, or at least it won’t convince Alliance players that this character is actually dark. There is a fequently-expressed view here that there’s no such thing as a Horde civilian.