If you’re disagreeing with the small scale formula, then I want a capitol. I want to march on something, be shown as completely dominant, if evil, and then humiliate my faction rivalry counterpart - like you did to me.
If that’s unpalatable to you - and I imagine it would be unpalatable to most, then I think we should set aside scorched-earth means of approaching this discussion.
Well yah. I can always not do the content. I am just offering my reasons for why this would demotivate me from doing Warsong Gulch to better illustrate why myself and so many other Horde posters are so resistant to your idea.
Particularly given that even if I didn’t do the quests it’d still canonically tie Warsong Gulch to the Fourth War, and that’d make me… Not feel great about it, to be honest.
Personally, I´ll tell you to be my guest as long as you pay the price and actually experience what we Hordies have experienced TWICE.
Tl;dr: execute some semblance of fairness regarding implementation or don´t bother, not interested in the game only solving your half of the problemand half asing mine, tyvm.
Reason why it´s once gain made evident the BEST path to go forwards is to divorce this factions from each other, put metaphorical walls constructed from narrative tungsten and concrete, and let the factions live their lives independent from each other, tyvm.
Oh, destruction of capitals? Let’s drown Orgrimmar in acid, kill the inhabitants there and … Okay, that’s enough. Now “evil power” is needed. Do not touch Elune. Abyss, Filth, Light … M … Tyranade makes bloody sacrifices to some forgotten Wild God? Will that wolf from Moonglade come up?
I mean, I think that problem exists already. I think Blizzard already sapped the motivation, and I don’t see how this quest’s existence, if you chose not to do it, really changes that. The object of the quest is to give you more of a reason to want to, and again, I feel that it does that especially in the wake of the current situation.
@ Ariel
I agree with your tl:dr in theory, but I don’t agree with the scale of what you’re proposing. Both sides hate what’s going on precisely because of the scale. I think you’d end up being more miserable than you’re giving the experience credit for - being humiliated sucks. The Alliance of course wouldn’t like it either. So we’d wear each other’s shoes for five years and conclude that the shoes suck. Great. Do you think this franchise can survive that? I don’t.
I also disagree with divorcing the factions or getting rid of PVP - and I’m a little annoyed that such is so often the answer - again, my proposal at it’s heart is a “back to Vanilla” model - one where the conflicts are small enough that you can choose to care about them, or not.
So, what did the Horde experience? Twice made an evil successful attack, twice fought against herself, twice their leaders became evil types. Let’s start with acidic Orgrimmar? The Alliance will then attack the Nelfs, Tyrande will flee, say, to the Dream, from there the Botani will begin an offensive.
This will be the first time.
In the second, Alleria, Abyss, etc. will go crazy. Turalyon will open a portal for the Army of Light, first we will beat the night elves, who en masse become the elves of the Abyss … And then the Army of Light, which, having finished fighting the Abyss, will turn its gaze on the infidels?
It re-contextualizes it from “fun PVP map from way back in vanilla that has no continued story relevance anymore” into “battle for revenge between the survivors of Teldrassil and some orcs”.
Adding quests adds lore which changes the context of the fun little games we play.
Not just in that arena. I’m envisioning a Forsaken reconquest, I’m envisioning Zandalari payback, with some Bilgewater action around the world thrown in. But yes, I feel that we should use these to in part update the world and resolve some of the lingering story grievances - and right a few scales.
I disagree that they had no story relevance in Vanilla though. They wrote a short story about Arathi Basin - they made a cinematic for the plaguelands. Alterac valley had in-battleground quests. They did try to tie the story into PVP at the time.
A little more serious. Would you agree if the night elves, along with the botani, attack Orgrimmar (it will be destroyed), and the mad Malfurion? And there, and the Nightmare can be added. We will kill the Mad Archdruid.
Wrong, both sides hate the story becasue it has perpetuated different types of cancerous writting in each faction (yours is the “Humans & lackeys + we are battered wives that will never learn to defend and will always forgive cause Human masters told us so”; ours is the “Collective of morons that get triggered to kill people by a fly passing in front of our eyes + we will never learn to govern ourselves if the Human Overlords don´t teach us how to do it”).
Scale just made the problem more evident, but the core of the problem is NOT the scale per se. It´s the incompetence of the people writting the story + their deliberate resistance to actually apply quality control policies to it or the process used in it´s creation.
As much as I hate to dmit it, I think this franchise can survive literal poopstorms regarding the lore as far as teh gameplay stays “decent”.
Most players don´t even care over their racial leaders, they care much more over which dungeons bosses they have to farm in mythic+ / raid so they get an actual upgrade. And PvP wise I guess they just care over climbing on their rating, achieving Gladiator ands GTFO to play something else.
Who said anything about “getting rid of PvP” why does PvP have to involve direct spats between the factions involving their actual territory.
Be my guest and create all the PvP scenarios you want using neutral territory as a source -think, Ashran in regards to the lore involved-. Any narrative involvement related to the actual lore territories of the factions requires writting competence Blizzard simply lacks, as per Cata, MoP, WoD and BfA have proven time and time again.
Dude, how many times Do I have to repeat myself? As long as the writting tools used for Horde are kept and you guys actually live though that, go wild. I don´t care.
Actually THAT´S the issue you people evidently have difficulty grasping: after BfA, we Horde lore nerds DON´T CARE for the Horde territories, let´us keep the pathetic characters we have left, don´t force us to play with the neutral-not-really-neutral Alliance reps and let us try to move on as best as we can.
It is grating because not only are we made to despise our faction, we have to get Alliance characters bothering us on top of it 24/7.
Wrong, both sides hate the story becasue it has perpetuated different types of cancerous writting in each faction (yours is the “Humans & lackeys + we are battered wives that will never learn to defend and will always forgive cause Human masters told us so”; ours is the “Collective of morons that get triggered to kill people by a fly passing in front of our eyes + we will never learn to govern ourselves if the Human Overlords don´t teach us how to do it”).
No, I am going to double down on this. These problems wouldn’t be anywhere near as bad if they didn’t do things like destroy the entire country that I wanted to defend in a patch or dictate that the ENTIRE HORDE were monsters as opposed to say, one wayward NPC. You can get away with a lot more, and you can tell a lot more stories if you stop trying to make everything matter to everyone. Conflicts need to be ignorable.
Regarding Franchise survivability, Blizzard is down to 30 mm MAUs after having effectively made WoW two products in one - continuing their years-long trend of losing customers, even in a global pandemic. Activision restructured them last year, veterans are fleeing the sinking ship like rats, Activision recently folded in a “fixer team”, and google search interest in Warcraft is as low as it’s ever been.
Things are bad - don’t get that point confused.
I also don’t think neutral territory is the answer for PVP content - it does have to matter, and places like WSG and AB are well-situated for that - provided that we align the content so that we get our power fantasy from there, not from the expectation that Blizzard will blow up a capitol for us, but then force us to be the bad guys because they want that juicy ubernarrative.
So you’re ready to sacrifice Orgrimmar? Excellent. I offer you in exchange for the heroic Forsaken with the Azerite Plague, which will save the Horde and the Alliance from the insane Night Elves of Nightmare.
Did I understand correctly that you are ready to give up territories in exchange for character development?
So, I did read the scenario. I’ll leave a comment on that thread to keep from clogging this one further.
ETA:
https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wow/t/a-proposal-for-warsong-gulch/846078/116
Sweet. 
Oh, no. I know there was lore for them back in the day. I used to love fighting in Warsong Gulch as a night elf specifically because I was defending Ashenvale from the Horde.
I just meant that since vanilla is long over the battlegrounds and their lore significance fell into the background too, which given how… Volatile the faction war is now suits me just fine.
Kyalin, please. Bolded is literally Stillwater in Tarenmill leveling… and pray tell, what is the dominant Alliance opinion regarding the HORDE thanks to that particular quest that had ONe particular character villified BUT excluded as an “one time only” case?
So, no. My experience in this place AND in the game tells me scale is irrelevant for the in-game narrative OR the Alliance players interested in “evaluating” the Horde as long as someone in the Horde is depictied acting evil, period.
No, YOU don´t get that point confused. The actual reason can be absolutely divorced from the story of the game, it can be something as simple as people having a preference for other platforms like Switch.
Rule No. 1 of conclussion making: never prove as correct your hypothesis using unrelated data to the study, period.
Unfortunately for you, and I will repeat like for the n-esim time: historical data regarding the narrative integrity of faction conflict expacs actually proved Blizzard writting team is simply UNABLE to find their way out of a wet paperbag. So, to fix that, cut the root of the problem A.K.A. fire everybody and invest in an Editor or a Quality Control supervisor for the lore aspect of teh game ffs.
At least in matters related to faction conflict.
Dude cause Orgrimmar or Silvermoon or Thuderbluff or all three of those places are relevant for my gameplay experience how exactly right now in Shadowlands? Heck, devs HAD TO erase the capitol portals and made a bunch of adjustments in the Auction house so players actually bothered with visiting those places, lol.
You people STILL not get the memo. I´ll put it in the same words I told years ago to Zerde:
Wanna get the whole freaking map for you faction? Be my guest. In exchange I don´t want to seem, hear or know about ANY Alliance / formerly Alliance / Alliance flavored character and/or rep EVER again. Frankly I found I care waaaay more for the few underused pathetic characters I have left that for places I dfon´t even visit in months and that became just another chore every time I leveled an alt.
Yeah, and the fact that she was very clearly a Rastakhan replacement. Makes me sad tbh
Regarding block one - you’re framing this in relation to what Alliance players think. I again assert that it doesn’t matter. It matters that Horde players identify with them. Alliance players should have reasons to hate them. The difference in those reasons creates conflict and rivalry - and that is good.
Your second block is assuming that alternatives like that didn’t exist before. They always did, however. WoW has to compete for entertainment dollars with other MMOs, with other video games, with movies, with subscriptions, with sports, with vacations, with alcohol - you name it. That hasn’t changed. What has changed are that the indicators are all trending down - which isn’t good if Activision starts wondering if they could get a better ROI elsewhere.
Regarding the third point, I agree with you - the writers do need to be sacked. I’m glad that we agree on that now instead of having to argue about whether that was mean or cruel to say - but their replacements need guidance and suggestions for what to do instead. Hence I am elevating a suggestion.
So you need an expansion in which the Horde does not interact with the Alliance? Or an eternity of lack of interaction?
With the first it is easier, it can be done in Anti-Cataclysm, to devote a whole expansion to the small history of the whole world. Perhaps even add that preconditioned “Pandarian Garden”.
Are you sure you want an eternity where you won’t fall prey to the evil Night Elves?
Freaking map - is it a “villainous map”?
He was the one who said Sylvanas planned Wrath gate all along and honestly I would say not many devs on the main team or in management positions are on the Horde team. Even Metzen really wanted King Chin to get a lot of spotlight and being MoP protagonist but that got a lot of backslash and was scrapped.
Note: This is not to complain but rather than accept the team writer humans because it’s easy and saves times on a mmorpg, not that they do a good job even with that
I mean we could always pretend to be the slow learning type and I think everyone can live with that, after all we only did a few of spring cleaning and barbecues prett much
Easy there are worst villains that without the Horde those guy would had won
Blizzard being lazy and writers just want to write generic human knight/mage or humanity saving the day like Day of Independence movie but I’d say even on back stage, the horde helped a lot and fortunate it some of those events are mentioned in the books of prequels for the next expansion.