True; in that case, I could probably see Blizz actually writing it.
But their commentary has reflected a lack of understanding of what theyâre even critiquing. The only exception was Gantrithor, who pointed out that it was strange to include the Steamwheedle.
If I missed the mark, fine, but Iâm looking for something to tell me how - something that actually engages with what I put down.
@ Shirrakou
There is precedent for some Night Elves flying off the handle with their choice of targets. The Druids of the Flame being among the more prominent, and of them, Leyara being the more convincing. I certainly donât see on a general basis why there wouldnât be at least some commanders who would see this as a way to prepare the field for invasion, and to take revenge for prior events.
Just a nitpick but this just comes off as Theyâre just too stupid/ignorant to know why itâs a bad idea, and they should just accept what I say
Not sure if that was your intention or not. But I think the biggest problem is, any sort of act from the horde in that scenario is likely going to be taken as a escalation tactic and thatâs not going to end well for anyone.
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Iâm having trouble understanding that. Whatâs the bad idea? A Night Elven commander performing hit and run raids on civilian settlements or the Horde trying to defend their border?
Again, I know thereâs a lot to read in that proposal. Itâs a catch 22 between incorporating all of the concerns and making it understandable, but this and other posts suggest that weâre running into the same problem.
The problem is, and look at this from the hordes perspective if you can. Those hit and run tactics can be completely justified from a alliance point of view. But if the horde strikes back, it comes off as them just picking on the Night elves again.
2 Likes
This is where I think the Barrens questing steps in. I disagree first of all that attacks on civilians are ever going to be justified, but the Barrens questing is intended to make this personal, particularly for the Warsong Commander - again, old war veteran, skipped the last couple of wars. This guy just wanted to mind his farm - who we follow.
As for striking back, I canât say that I agree when the Warsong do not extend into Ashenvale. The battleground is reframed from a situation where the Horde is pushing into Ashenvale to the Night Elves trying to gain access to the Barrens. Itâs intentionally defensive in nature.
I might go so far as to say that more faction conflict would be actively detrimental to the Hordeâs story, at least with the way things stand right now. No matter who initiates it.
9 Likes
How would Horde not look at (very) small scale attacks on Horde civilians and say âyeah, we deserve thatâ?
Or, maybe, âHey! At least they havenât immolated Mulgoreâ ?
We been trying to explain this very thing for several posts now. That no matter what happens, there isnât a situation where the alliance isnât justified and the horde arenât monsters for retaliating against the NE.
3 Likes
You may want to keep in mind that the vast majority of PVPers are not roleplayers, and even those of us who are donât actually incorporate the PVP into our stories all the time.
Attacks on civilians are never justified in-universe. OOCly though⊠Kind of hard to argue the Horde has moral grounds to get all up in arms over it after what happened to Teldrassil. Which I believe is Droite and Gantrithorâs point.
You canât concoct a reason for the Horde to become invested in PVP like this. Not from a story perspective, anyway.
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Right, its like Iâve said repeatedly.
The Horde no longer has a leg to stand on within the Faction Conflict. No motive that could possibly be justified or valid for an offensive engagement, and nothing that wouldnât be seen as âweâre deserving of itâ on the defensive. You add in two rounds of villain batting that actively and repeatedly have told us we should feel bad about participating in attacking the Alliance. There is nothing left. Especially if the primary goal is to find some route to rebuilding and âredemptionâ ⊠which is a tightrope as it is.
And yet Iâm apparently giving into âdoomarismâ and impossible taking the stance that you cannot create a redemptive/rebuilding narrative for the Horde (as difficult as it is) and continue to support the Faction Conflict and PvP on a story level. Which means any attack on the Horde (even civilians) would likely be only responded with by tightening the borders. Which doesnât really support PvP.
4 Likes
Nope, you summarized things quite right⊠itÂŽs adorable how they say âI donÂŽt want the Horde players to feel humiliated for playing Hordeâ just to imply the Alliance has to be portrayed as such effective and big menace that one simple attack is enough to terrorize the Horde for life -effectively humiliating the Horde players by proxy of implying the Alliance MUST be the Absolutely Very Best Most Powerful and Morally Coorect Faction out of the two⊠ergo âHordeâ is second rate faction and itÂŽs players guess what message get?-.
Ouch. sheÂŽs not gonna like to hear that argument -regardless on how valid and logical it is-
And I can see some of those very same NEFPAs complaining over âNelves getting ruined cause Nelves are the Good GuysTM and they wouldnÂŽt attack civilians even if those are dirty Horde onesâ.
And afterwards devs panic and retconn the Nelf attacks on civilians making the âdefense / reprisalsâ of the Horde yet another notch in the âHurde is Bad cause they Attacked puur wittle Nelves fur the lulsâ BS post.
Your âideaâ is a literal copy-paste on the Silithus confrontations between Horde and Alliance, just replacing the races involved. Initially it was Alliance SI:7 -a military organization- killing Goblin civilians, but then panic happened and the whole issue was retconned to make the Goblins the Bad Guys and totes deserving of getting gutted on the spot.
And sorry Kyalin but as the saying goes: the first time, shame on you. The second time, shame on me.
Putting ANY kind of trust on the writting team for them to actually RESPECT the scenario and yes, âvillain batâ the Alliance after they went out of their way to contradict themselves and kick the Horde with the actual villain bat in BfA is nothing but madness and stupidity. So thanks but no thanks. If you guys are so desperate for BlizzardÂŽs brand of âcoddlingâ used for the Horde narrative, then you people better be well damned prepared to pay the consequences of such âbrand of coddlingâ, period.
Not only that, the actual HISTORICAL RECORD related to âPvP faction conflict expacsâ actually started with Alliance originally being groomed to be the aggresors and BOTH times the devs decided to make a 180Âș and ended up making the Horde the aggresors for the lols, justifying the initial Alliance attacks or downright pretending they never happened.
And we Horde players are supposed to âbelieve or have faithâ devs wonÂŽt try a third or a fourth or a n-esim time their usual modus operandi? Pfffff, give me a break!!
12 Likes
The funny and frustrating thing about this is that this kneejerk reaction only happened after they realized that chronologically the attack of the Bilgewater on the Explorers League to abduct Sapphretta could not have possibly happened until after the initial Alliance attack on the cartel in Silithus. And before Magniâs mission to Thunder Bluff. Which means, there was nothing wrong with those Goblin Civilians harvesting those resources. It was an Alliance military operation attacking Horde civvies.
There is sort of a bitter irony that Blizz realized that the original excuse that they wrote into the story to handwave SI:7âs actions in Silithus wouldnât work, so they had to retcon another Bilgewater attack on the Explorerâs League. And the only reason they gave for this âfirstâ one was âTheyâre Goblinsâ. Then the original excuse they wrote kicked in after, for a âsecond unprovoked attack on the Explorerâs Leagueâ.
14 Likes
Gal (or is it guy? I canÂŽt remember if you answered back there when I asked) I think the only time devs let a Horde race keep the moral / logical highground WITHOUT running desperately to retconn it was with the Velf intro scenario.
And I think the usual type of posters that care for âcorrect / moral highgroundâ are either still in literal denial regarding Velves being portrayed as the actual wrong/bad guys in that scenario or they simply rejected it with vehemence and are still complaining over it and âruining their Helf oportunitiesâ.
Which in retrospective tells us A LOT of VERY noisy Alliance players are indeed NOT prepared to be subjected to the devsÂŽ usual brand of ânarrative favoritismâ employed for Horde.
10 Likes
Sigh ⊠its amazing Alliance posters donât get it.
Like, Blizz does not allow Horde tragedies to be portrayed as tragedies. They do not allow Alliance acts of grey to be portrayed for acts of grey for long. This is why despite Taraujo and Theramore being valid military targets and tragedies, one was thematically portrayed as a valid military target ⊠the other as a tragedy. For both sides. And why Blizz put more effort absolving Hawthorne for his part, than was placed on Taraujo itself. Or why the only person to have ever beg for forgiveness for The Purge of Dalaran ⊠was the leader of the victims. Aethas. Whoâs impossible choice when he stumbled upon the theft just too late was conveniently bugged out of that scenario. Thank god, the Sunreavers might be victims then.
Blizz will always keep the Alliance âpureâ ⊠they have far less reservations with the Horde. A faction they canât even be bothered writing motives for their evil most of the time, let along validating them. Its why I cannot fathom any scenario in the post BfA environment that Blizz wont continue to do the same should the Faction Conflict continue. Or the Alliance players wouldnât flip their lids if they miraculously didnât.
6 Likes
Well, I think I called it quite well to Kyalin 3 posts before this one.
Separating the Bias from the gameplay experience is harder for us lore nerds than it is for the average regular player. The average regular player simply doesnÂŽt care and it isnÂŽt genuinelly concerned either with the Horde being absent for everything sans villain batting and the Alliance being the de facto âweak lookingâ pansies that will forgive all and everytime as some sort of abused battered wife. And devs know this. Ergo why they continue reusing their old narrative formula time and time again.
Tl;dr: that being my reason for proposing ABSOLUTE INDEPENDENT narrative development for both factions from now onwards⊠this circus literally needs a hard reset that devs arenŽt interested in using, ergo, the less both factions interact with each other narratively speaking from now onwards, the better.
2 Likes
This alone says it all.
Let them.
They have it coming.
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I donÂŽt think the usual suspects claiming for this as some sort of miracle to solve the disaster post BfA are actually prepared to experience it.
they can say Horde players âdonÂŽt know how losing feelsâ but then again let me present you both MoP and BfA -DazarÂŽalor patch was particularly gruesome from a troll fan PoV. It was literally getting their teeth kicked, being shown as completely incompetent and afterwards getting chastised cause âyou deserve it by proxy of rolling Hordeâ. Oh and they are made to help the assassin of their beloved King afterwards in one of the most despicable and disgusting scenarios IÂŽve ever had to witness (I refused to actively help Jaina there, sorry NOT sorry) cause again, âHorde bad, Alliance Goodâ-.
5 Likes
Oh, neither do I.
Which is even more reason to do it anyway.