The vast majority of players in general are not RPers - but as I’ve stated many times, the mimesis effect means that some shade of unconscious role-play happens regardless.
I’m also afraid that I disagree with the idea that Orcs would just stand by and tell their civilians “well, we know that you’re getting killed, but the people who are killing you are Night Elves and we feel bad for them, so too bad”. I don’t think players would find that situation reasonable either - clearly unreasonable actors aside.
… and that unreasonable actors exist unfortunately is the conclusion I have to take from this whole episode - of people not reading the proposal and shooting it down because someone with a blue-background wrote it. I’ve tried engaging with the extremists - that didn’t work. Frustrating and disappointing, but at least I learned something today.
Well, if such scenario wouldn´t end up negatively impacting other Alliance players that probably get the risk of asking for it, I´d 100% supoort you.
But I kinda dislike the idea of Alliance players getting kicked down and disheartened with the storty of the game like I´ve been disheartened just because a portion of the blue playerbase act too noisy and with much evident lack self awareness while posting on the forums.
Careful Kyalin, you´re starting to sound a little bit too much like our “nO nEgAtIvItY iN tHe DoJo” Pullitzer winning ( sorry couldn´t say that with a straight face) lore dev team.
Several people have pointed to you why the scenario doesn´t work under the current premises -including the people that would be charged with writting AND implementing it-. If you just refuse to LISTEN to several people saying the same damn thing and even giving examples based upon irl events justifying their arguments and you STILL don´t want to understand, then sorry but this is a “you” issue.
Velythyras - when I ask someone to explain back to me what I wrote because they are displaying a shocking lack of understanding of what the material was, they fail to do so, and I have to not only explain it to them but also explain several other points that were right there in the material that they claim to be critiquing, the obvious answer is that they are misunderstanding something - in this case because they didn’t bother to read what they were critiquing.
And when I go to clarify over and over, and they hunt for any possible reason to dismiss what I’m saying - in the final case because I didn’t come at the problem with the purity of intent that Droite wanted - pretty much a loyalty/purity test - I have to conclude that I have led this horse to water, but it will not drink.
And I am extremely frustrated with that. I spent hours trying to come up with ways to answer every single objection that I just had to swat down there because people did not want to read the thing - they just wanted to find a way to validate their anger.
The hacks in the forums -yes, including myself- HARDLY represent the actual playerbase population; maybe not even the lore interested one. I rather not put a big label under a big portion of them just because some like to act like not self aware a-holes with a regular basis in this forums.
Dear, people raised objection based on reading your proposal… congrats in blowing up your own argument in favor of playing the good ´ol “victim card”.
Don´t want to listen to us while we are using gloves, then let me tell you bluntly: think harder cause your scenario is ridden by plotholes (worse, plotholes that are pasture for the usual dev bad writting BS as per the experimental and historical data related to both the narrative and the implementation of the narrative in-game), period.
You mean when you claim they are displaying a lack of understanding.
Which requires you to refuse to even consider that the problem might be on your side of the conversation.
According to you.
And they have told you many times over that they do understand what you are saying, and still (dare to) disagree.
Again, by your standards, which don’t seem to include self-reflection.
…you mean like an understanding of the lore?
Well, at least you’re being honest about that.
Because no; you didn’t. One thing Droite got right was that your primary concern was about making the Night Elves less victimized, rather than helping the Horde be less villainized.
And you failed, not because
but rather because your premise from the beginning was wrong.
Even more obvious. Plot holes that are perfect for Blizz to write backdoors to invalidate and bury Alliance “grey” under justifications and whitewashing. This is a recipe for disaster, portraying the NEs right in their vendetta … while the Horde is “beating up our victims” again. And that would be in an ideal situation where Blizz wont rush to insulate the Alliance from their own grey acts like always.
In such a scenario, where rogue NEs are slaughtering Horde civilians in the Barrens … then the Horde finds itself in a position where the only thing they can really do without risk of further villain batting (even in self defense) is to tighten the borders and request the Alliance to step in and deal with the problem to preserve the Armistice. Forcing the Alliance to make a choice. Hunt down the NE radicals themselves, or disavow them. Both come with massive implications. But it means that the Horde keeps hands off beyond simply making the guerilla fighters jobs more difficult. But this would in no way support PvP on a story level. Rather, it would suppress it quite a bit. Defeating the entire point of the concept.
No, then it would mean that the Alliance can not in any way support the NE radicals without destroying the Armistice. Thus, the Alliance PC cannot. Which means that the War will escalate again FAR BEYOND a simple scuffle in the barrens if they were to allow their citizens to aid the NEs who slaughtered civilians. Which isn’t exactly conducive to PvP if the majority of your Faction’s races can’t participate.
In essence, the smartest move is to simply put the burden of choice on the Alliance in such a scenario. They either step in and stop them themselves; or they remain hands off. And should they decide to not act, and also interfere on those NEs behalf. Then they are breaking the Armistice and conflict will not stay confined to the barrens. It will re-escalate into a World War again.
Which I have no issues with - especially if this is not the only conflict point. The only caveat that I push for is that I think these conflicts should be localized into fronts. Places like the Barrens Border, Arathi, the High Seas, etc. - you get a series of battlegrounds with little stories around them.
This is just a proposal for one of them. Arathi is next on my list if I can ever get to it.
This bolded bit here tells me you didn’t understand what I am saying.
You’re not trying to get orcs to engage with the story in a way they can have fun. You’re targeting players. And the players are telling you that if the night elves attacked Horde civilians they, perceiving the world from a Doyalist perspective as we tend to do when not actively roleplaying, would shrug their shoulders and feel like it was deserved.
I do appreciate that, but I also think that the posters I’m engaging with are coming at this with a pre-defined idea - that one being that they believe that the Horde can never be redeemed under any circumstances.
That’s a similar mindset to the one I used to have about Malfurion and Tyrande never being able to be taken seriously again - and one of the silver linings of BFA is that I have to admit to being partially wrong. I also think the position that no one would ever sympathize or want to protect innocent people is wrong - especially if you can do the character work to make people care about who they’re protecting.
Of course not. Because your entire Agenda here is to give you chance to act on YOUR unresolved Grievances and YOUR Motives. And both the Alliance and Horde are an accessory to that. To be made convenient for that story. Because honestly, if a rogue NE group was slaughtering their way through the Barrens civilian population … the majority of the Alliance would not come to their defense. Because its easier to either deal with them themselves, or just let the Horde hunt them down without risk of Alliance interference … then let these civilian killers drag their people and their populations into another War.
And like it or not, that will apply to the Draenei and the Gilneans. No matter how much NE players try to make them an accessory for their race and their stories because “they owe them”.
… and again, this is a purity test. I do not believe that my interests are subordinate to yours and vice versa. This is an attempt to resolve things for the both of us. Past that, I owe no debt of loyalty to you, nor do I owe you deference. I am treating you as a fellow player and negotiating partner. You do not occupy a superior position to me or me to you.
As for the larger world - there’s a thread entitled “Writing a PVP Narrative - Post Shadowlands” which is the larger picture in which this fits. Writing a PVP-Narrative, Post Shadowlands
Yes I know, more reading - but if you’re worried about the larger situation - with admittedly some areas that could use some updates to account for later suggestions - here you go.
Not putting a big bad clause redarding how absolutely NO ONE from the story dev team post Cata can get close to 15 ft from your scenario and how they are absolutely forbidden from making any type of change that retcons the narrative intention of it post implementation was your first mistake.
To put it simple you´re asking the Horde players bummed and distrustful of Blizzard´s writting team -thanks to the lack of competence and actual malice exercised by them in BfA- to give a chance to your story and it´s implementation as a “solution” to the Horde narrative problem, while you don´t take into account the crucial fact the clowns that ruined the Horde in BfA using an scenario disturbingly similar to your own proposed one would be the same ones implementing the story. And then you wonder why we don´t TRUST nor BELIEVE Blizzard WILL implement it with nuance and honesty!!!
To put it in perspective: it has already happened 2 TIMES Kyalin, and in BOTH the devs capriciously decided it was easier to muddle the Alliance aggresion and put the whole freaking blame on the Horde´s characters and the Horde faction with no coherence involved. We´re talking about actual experimental data here, woman, so if you think your word is "good2 nough to trump my actual freaking irl experience with the game, then you´re playing us like fools, refuse to read or lack self awareness.
Also, you´ll absolutely need an implementation that gives NO possible cause to remove the aggresion causals from the Alliance side of the story to retroactively justify them and put a Horde character in the spot as the actual “aggresor”… and if for this it is necessary to get Khadgar/rando Neutral NPC literally calling you guys up on your BS and PUTTING THE BLAME FOR STARTING THE AGGRESION UNQUESTIONABLY ON YOUR SIDE OF THE FENCE, then you damn well may implement that safety clause for us too. And if this means YOU GUYS HAVE TO KILL YOUR OWN ROGUE ELEMENTS AND GET CHASTENED BY HORDE FLAVORED NPCS, THEN YOU WILL HAVE TO STAND IT.
But then again, if the fight ends up being Bad Alliance vs. Rebel Alliance + Horde, is it an actual PvP scenario? Cause me thinks it isn´t.
This would be true if we were discussing real world innocent people, but we’re not. I personally don’t feel any strong sense of urgency to leap into the fray to defend digital pictures on my computer screen unless I am heavily engaged with the narrative already.
Which most Horde posters here simply are not. It was beaten out of them.
And trying to find a way to re-engage the narrative is a tall order as this 2.5K post thread can attest to.
was that your primary concern was about making the Night Elves less victimized, rather than helping the Horde be less villainized.
The last ten years’ worth of expansions.