Ok. How does the Horde atone for something if the victims don’t feel satisfied? Why should an Alliance player care about the Horde players feeling better about themselves if they don’t give a damn about the Alliance player? The Alliance wants revenge, who cares what the Horde players think about it.
Also call me crazy, or maybe my perspective is just that broken, but the idea of the alliance needing to come to the horde to ask for help with something would probably sound more positively empowering than anything else that’s happened with the faction in the past decade.
I, uh, just don’t think alliance fans would have a grand old time having a civil war scenario that requires they recruit the retired WW2 german veterans to give them a hand.
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The Alliance getting revenge is going to have to come in the form of more aggressive, Alliance, faction war conflict, filtering into battlegrounds that have been updated and beefed up lorewise - and the nations of the Alliance are primed to do that. However, you cannot have a satisfying conflict of that caliber without the Horde also having a reason, one that their players can identify with, to partake in it.
Hence this thread.
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I mean, imagine having to do that, not once, but twice. That sort of scenario would sour anyone’s opinion of things
I think the difference is that through your opinion the only way for them to do that is by redeeming themselves in the eyes of the Alliance. Which means inherently the Horde peoples opinion of the Horde people is defined by the Alliance and their opinions. And since we’ve essentially established in this thread that it truly is impossible for the Horde to ever redeem themselves in the eyes of the Alliance, this would equate to it being impossible to redeem themselves in their own eyes.
And no, the issue really is that the epitome of virtue has become the Alliance itself … which means the only avenues towards virtue for the Horde is through the Alliance and their eyes. Which consequently means there is no path to virtue for the Horde, beyond perhaps how submissive/convenient we become for them.
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That’s the point I suppose I was trying to get across. You said it better than I could. We horde players have little reason atm to want to participate in another faction war just to get dunked on again.
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A good way to do that would be focus on a conflict in which the Horde is seen as on the “right” side of things. I think a good conflict scenario that does that would be the Void elves vs the Blood elves.
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I think there have to be multiple conflict scenarios - and that the geographic areas around the existing battlegrounds are good places to have it - but this also plugs into a larger scenario.
Regarding areas of Alliance grievances, I don’t see it with the void elves. The difficulty is - where I DO see it, there is a tendency on the part of some Horde posters to say “well, no matter what it is, we’re going to deserve it anyway - so why care”? This thread is about trying to look for ways to refute or combat that.
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The suggestion was the Horde needing help from the Alliance to protect itself from the Alliance.
You haven’t even suggested anything other than “Horde must pay.”
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I saw the void elf thing a bit differently. It’s not that the void elves have grievances that have priority over other alliance races, but rather the other races with those grievances would use the Void elves power to hit the Horde extremely hard. So they get some form of satisfaction and the Void elves get field tested on their abilities to prove to the Alliance they are useful and not a dangerous liability.
Not necessarily, but that redemption is connected to the Alliance. Or do you think it would be a good look for the Horde if it did a bunch of things to benefit itself, and then considered itself redeemed, without adressing any of it’s victims? To me, it would look like a bunch of selfish, unfeeling monsters patting themselves on the back for a job well done, completely out of touch with reality or their surroundings.
I did not. No idea where you got that idea from.
Is there any other option? And if you’re gonna go with the Horde just walking away, don’t bother.
No, I agree with your assessment.
This is just a defense mechanism on this one point, relying on Lore. The only good thing that come out of BfA for my faction where our ARs, and Blizz has already done enough to damage that. By making it so they were only recruited by Sylvie to add more souls to burn; pressure the Alliance to do the same; and nearly every one of their reps expressing regret for even joining us. Even equating us to the Legion. It hurt…
So, for me to preserve the one tarnished, crap coated positive we even got out of another supposed “Horde Expansion” (that came entirely at the Horde’s expense, and ripped us to absolute pieces to settup another villain and expac) … I do lean on the canon timetable and lore to defend the NB joining. They and the other ARs are the only sewage covered diamonds Blizz gave me in this septic tank of an expansion.
I mean, I appreciate the comfort in trying to make this look better, but I don’t think that we’re doing justice to the scale of the problem when we do that. We’re almost normalizing it, backing into an idea that BFA was acceptable.
That’s a sentiment that I couldn’t disagree more with. It’s why you’ll see me pushing back hard on rewrite ideas that still involve destroying the capital cities or assuming that you even should destroy a capital city to make faction conflict work.
@ Philschneidr
I suppose that makes sense. I just didn’t like where I thought it was going. 
Exactly. Horde(faction and players) only want to feel better about themselves. Alliance(faction and players) be damn. So why should i care about them? I want my revenge. I don’t care how much Horde fanatics cry about it.
To which I replied:
To which you replied:
Perhaps some wires were crossed.
“Horde must pay!” Isn’t an option, it’s a mindset. One that the Alliance can’t even figure out an end to.
Again, we have plenty of Alliance posts about the Horde “needing to pay” but not spelling out how that looks without:
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In short, I’m not even allowed a single tarnished bright spot in the entire expansion, and should feel nothing but absolute shame for what Blizz did with my faction. Which, go figure, is how Blizz has written my faction, and have been actively shaming us for their writing decisions.
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Then how about this. The Horde, without coercion or intimidation, tries to help the Alliance, and particularly the Night elves, rebuild. A truly altruistic and selfless act, to show that they can do more than harm or act in self preservation.
That good enough? Or is helping the other faction too humiliating as well?
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I seriously have never once thought of this, or seen it mentioned on the forum, in the three or so years since all this was announced.
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I feel that I have a decent enough frame of reference to say that I know that it sucks to dispense with the fantasy that Blizzard sold you, but they sold you a lie and we shouldn’t be treating that fact as being less terrible than it is. BFA was completely intolerable, from multiple angles. It’s one thing to admit nuance where it’s welcome - to highlight the parts that Blizzard did well, it’s another to try to put lipstick on a pig, and by so doing accidentally encourage Blizzard to pull this sort of thing again.
Yes, it hurts, but I don’t think we can pull punches, no.
@ Pellex
Night Elf issues are not well discussed. It’s easy to feel a certain way, it’s another to explain it (particularly past Blizzards 7,000 caveats that in my view intentionally don’t address our problems) - and doing that properly, unfortunately, requires experience.
How is Alliance supposed to stop being morally good if they don’t start attacking the Horde with some pretty hard hits?
How does that work?
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