How can we redeem/rebuild the Horde?

Lore Story Forum
2433

Sigh … lets be clear here. Tyrande treating the Nightborne with contempt and mistrust was both totally in character for her, and justified from her perspective. And since she is both the sole political and religious authority of her people, and not even the most extreme High Profile rep, her word and opinion carries a LOT of weight. Thus, when you consider the “stipulations” of the Shen’drelar being allowed back into the Kaldorei, it makes sense that the NEs would be extremely hesitant to reconnect with a group of Highborne relics with enough strength left that they can’t just bully and “humble” into cultural restrictions and suppression. And yes, that is what they did to the Shen’drelar, as even Malf (a progressive by NE standards) required them to be utterly broken and desperate to let them back in … while deeply restricted.

However, none of this justified resentment and suspicion for the NEs means the NBs have to put up with it. The NEs holding nothing but contempt for what the NBs represent makes sense, but the NBs don’t need to bow before them. And if you play BOTH sides of the Surumar Campaign, it is very clear that Tyrande is not there to save the Nightborne. She is there to fight the Legion, and the Nightborne are bodies she intended to use to spare NE lives in that conflict. And despite Liadrin’s “Playing Politics” in the recruitment scenario, her reasons to be in Surumar are a lot more personal … with the well being of the Shal’dorei in mind. Since she knows better than anyone the horrors of extreme mana-withdrawel and what it feels like to have a beloved leader betray your people to the Fel. Rommath is just there to talk Arcane Shop and Geek out.

So … long story short. It makes sense for the NEs to not want to open relations with the NBs. It makes sense for the BEs to want to open them. It thus makes sense for the NBs to be open to building relations with the cousins that want relations with them (and share many interests), over the siblings who hate them for their culture … and don’t. Frankly, if the NBs had joined under Jin instead of Sylvanas … I don’t think there is a single legitimate argument you could have made against that choice. But … like all of BfA … its who they joined under and when they joined thats the problem. To the point where they themselves regret doing so during the expac, and akin the Horde to the Legion… God I truly hate BfA…

10 Likes
2434

And I gave you an answer.

I want Baine to have a meaningful character arc within SLs that clearly places his own characterization needs first. Over the stories’ need to use him. Something he has not been allowed in ages. Something that is meaningful, personal, and results in tangible growth. One that does not continue to reduce him to an accessory for Anduin, where he is simply waiting around (or going through that journey) solely for the benefit of Anduin and HIS story. One that hints or proves why he is our “Best” and “Heart”. Or at least is capable of becoming that. Its time to allow the High Chieftain of the Horde Tauren to actually stand on his own two feet, and become more than a plot-device. After all, him being a Token Good Horde should no longer be necessary if Blizz is finally serious about letting the Horde be rebuilt/redeemed. I do not feel its unreasonable to expect the main rep of the single most spiritual Horde race we have getting some sort of PERSONAL arc in the Land of the Dead. Especially as one of two living Horde reps present in SLs.

And as a note, I actually don’t mind that Baine has positive relations with both Anduin and Jaina. I do however mind that he’s apparently not allowed to make reasonable boundaries within those relationships, as he is in fact a major leader of the Horde. Baine lacks his father’s nuance. On when to sacrifice for peace, and when force is necessary. And any character arc he gets should reflect that, as well as crafting those professional boundaries between him and the Alliance. Him having personal relationships is fine, same for Calia tbh. But he also needs to build professional ones. Otherwise he’s going to be made into little more than a tool and excuse to make the Horde a side-kick in the Alliance’s story from now on.

2435

Whether you like it or not, any possible resolution to this corundrum involves the Horde and the Alliance in some way. But for whatever reason you lot are completely unwilling to have any of it. To you, the Alliance can’t have reparations, or payback, or anything else. We’re just meant to be left out to dry. And that is something I cannot accept, and I will never accept that position.

I don’t give a crud about the Horde players cowtowing. I want your faction and mine to settle their debts. That’s it. I wonder if you will ever understand that.

2436

Two thoughts:

First, a lot of that huge Alliance cast was originally created with the apparent intention of adding some grey to the Alliance. Night Elves were supposed to be savage no-holds-barred warriors who wouldn’t flinch from bloody acts. Worgen were supposed to be ticking time bombs who might snap and go on a rampage at any moment. That was cured, so they added Void Elves under the same premise. Dark Irons were supposed to dabble in sinister forbidden magics and cook up morally questionable plans in their underground strongholds.

Now, the leaders of those groups are all paragons of wisdom and restraint nowadays (with the possible exception of Tyrande, but we don’t really know yet where they’re going with her). But leaders can be overthrown, ignored, or defied by other characters who more fully represent the original vision. For a quick example off the top of my head, say some worgen starts a pack that revels in going feral, saying that anything else is denying the true nature of the wolf. This person quickly acquires a large following of people who agree with those ideals, maybe force-converting and brainwashing others until they become a threat to both the Alliance and the Horde.

My second thought is that the Alliance leaders don’t have to be ill-intentioned to cause trouble. They can do things that seem like the right path at the time but lead to disastrous unforeseen consequences. An example of that would be the scenario someone recently proposed in which Turalyon calls upon Yrel and her army to deal with some problem on Azeroth, but once that’s dealt with, they decide that the real problem is that the whole planet doesn’t worship the Light, and they go on a Lightbinding spree like they did back on Draenor.

6 Likes
2437

My comment was mostly a joke to churn the thread, but I could expand just a bit.

One of my biggest issues with Tyrande as a character is that since Cataclysm, her point in the franchise seems to have been “idiot who is wrong”. MOP’s A Little Patience scenario did extraordinary, lasting damage that, by the time we get to Val’sharah, is something that Blizzard wants to drill into your head with the intensity of of a jackhammer and the precision of an electron microscope. She is constructed to be impulsive, to annoyingly yell at the player, and to be humbled. (It by the way is extremely hard to not view the Night Warrior arc in this same light). Is this in line with Warcraft 3? No, Tyrande made some stern and controversial decisions, but they typically were well considered, and the examples that people trot out are typically examples where they disagree with her strategic rather than tactical aims. Things like the first Night Elf mission - because I guess human invaders are just supposed to be trusted because paladin. Or things like the freeing of Illidan, where Malfurion tried to shut down the conversation, and in a sort of cosmic sense, Tyrande ended up being right. I’ve seen people even criticize her when she identified a strategic bottleneck and saved the Blood Elves from the scourge because she didn’t expect that the bridge would give out. You know what I haven’t seen? Commentary on the one moment where she DOES act impulsively - that’s Night Elf mission 3, and do you know why? It’s because she’s wildly successful, and just bulldozes a developed Orcish base. Warcraft 3’s presentation of the character of course is gone. We’re left with the idiot who is wrong. That is what she is there to be.

This coincides with another of my issues with how the Night Elves are portrayed - for all the onscreen attention that at least Night Elf themes get, we rarely get their side of the story, or get to see their side of controversial opinions get expressed. Arcane magic has known physiological effects on elves, same with Fel magic. There is not a magically oriented elven society on the planet that hasn’t at one time or another tried to invite demons into the world for their own personal power - and a somewhat interesting “global warming”-esque argument that we got from the Nexus War about arcane magic was dropped from the narrative entirely. Night Elf objections are instead framed as nothing more than bigotry for its own sake, as if the writers were trying to say: “:clap: Hating :clap: Arcane :clap: Magic :clap: is :clap: racist! :clap:” Who cares about the controversy?

For an idea about how this can be done right - I offer the following. I see parallels with augmentation technology in Deus Ex - particularly in its addiction that will kill you if you don’t sate it. (Content warning: Depictions of blood, violence, extremism):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=akaos1U8Rto

Now, did Eidos sand away bigotry and prejudice in this? Absolutely not - but they do make it a more believable controversy, and the company was mature enough to let the player decide if they wanted to agree with this kind of thing by weaving in more sympathetic and persuasive characters - and letting you side with them if you so chose. In WoW, RPers had to make that themselves, and I still think that the great Night Elf culture war that played out in Darnassus was some of the most fun RP I’ve ever had.

But, stepping back, take those two elements and put them together. Now put it in the context of us learning about the Nightborne joining the Horde right after Teldrassil was loudly and spectacularly announced. Remember how I was a bit confused at the idea that the Alliance’s flaws are never brought out or never subject to consequences? This is another one of the reasons why. It looks like Tyrande and the Night Elves by extension were getting some kind of kharmic retribution for having understandable skepticism and concern with arcane magic - made bitterly ironic when we go to consider that they depended on arcane magic to make the evacuation happen.

So, in summation - it looked like: “Tyrande is a bigoted idiot, who was wrong, whose hatred lost Teldrassil”. However reasonable the Nightborne’s actions were presented.

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2438

And we want the Horde to redeem itself, in the eyes of it’s own people. Damn what the alliance thinks about it. Because far as I see it, the alliance has little reason to bury the hatchet, so trying to please them or their fans is a waste of time at this point. That’s just my opinion.

2439

Why do they need to that? Horde didn’t commit crimes against their own people.
So they don’t need to redeem themselves to themselves.

They can just pretend nothing happened and move on. Btw we are talking about Horde people not Horde players.

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2440

And why, at this stage, would the alliance believe the horde is going to change or even capable of it? Point is, they can work on righting the wrongs they comitted, without worrying if the alliance believes it or not. They shouldn’t care if the alliance trusts them or not or believe they changed

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2441

But the Nightborne, the Highmountain, and their recruitment scenario happened at the end of Legion. Prior to Teld or the 4th War. Or even the start of them really. You could absolutely argue that they happened after another Faction Conflict expac was announced (which did happen), but I don’t recall anything definitive happening on the Teld side beyond maybe that “it was burned by something”. And like all of Blizz for all of BfA, Blizz was very much on the “We’re going to lie to your faces about this crap for two years, and false-tease that maybe there is something more going on”. Gotta love that mentality.

Regardless, bad timing under a forced and awful Warchief. But, by the end of Legion I had no doubt in my mind why the NBs would be open to eventually joining the Horde alongside the BEs. The NEs were justified in why the weren’t open to relations. The BEs were justified in why they were. The NBs were thus justified in why they grew closer to the BEs who built their entire civilization in emulation of them, than the NEs who held nothing but contempt for that civilization. And had Blizz allowed them to join under Vol’jin, I stand by the point that there are very few arguments you could make as to why that didn’t make sense.

1 Like
2442

And thats my point.
If you think the Horde has no incentive or responsibility to prove to their victims that they are no longer a threat or they are remorseful of what they have done then why do they need to make amends to themselves?

What does that even look like? They don’t view themselves as responsible or at fault or so whats the issue? Just pretend it never happened?

2 Likes
2443

I might be misreading the conversation, but blaming the night elves losing Teldrassil on failing to recruit the nightborne sounds like the same faulty train of thought as that Cata quest mentioned earlier, where the dying NPC was trying to blame their own hubris on a spontaneous dragon-induced end-of-the-world event.

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2444

And how is that at odds with what I want? I didn’t realize that the epitome of virtue for the Horde was to hide their heads in the sand, and pretend that nothing is owed, and that there is no guilt.
The matter can either be settled, or haunt the faction until the game’s death. I don’t know which you prefer, but those are the options.

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2445

If Blizzard wanted the NB join Night Elves they could have done it in a hundred ways.
Sometimes people talk about these things like its real life or there is this deep underlying lore that would make it impossible.

There just isn’t.
Ps. Not that I wanted the NBs they are damn ugly. Though I won’t say no to NEs getting some of that Suramar city planning.

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2446

I hated seeing the nightborne join the horde so much because I bought into Blizzard’s “keep racial silhouettes unique” for the longest time and I get the feeling the elf swap was just because they’re elves and just about everyone loves them and also because I feel like it’d make horde naga less likely and I know that’s not logical but I need something more immediate to blame argh

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2447

They can atone for Teldrassil, and if the alliance still doesn’t believe or trust them after that? That’s entirely on the alliance, that’s my point

2448

The reason I like Classic is because life is simple.
Stormwind isn’t a dragon airport.
Races are more consistent. Alliance is what I remembered it to be.
Simpler times.

Now with all these ARs and circus of all these races and glowing armors or giant flying mounts.
Its chaos. Total chaos.

1 Like
2449

Atone for what?
They commit the crime and set their own sentence? Sounds kind of selfish.

This is assuming that the Horde is supposed to or going to atone for their perceived crimes on other people.

2450

That’s fine. As long as the Horde does something that merits that trust.

2451

Imo any goodwill gesture Horde could have pulled off sailed off into the sunset by the end of BFA. There is literally nothing they can do to remedy the situation.

Just let Alliance have a vengeance arc and use that opportunity to build the Horde back up for its own players.

Thrall or anyone else releasing a BP “We’re sorry” video isn’t going to change any views.

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2452

Not at the expense of Horde players.

Right, you just want the faction they enjoy playing to tow the Alliance party line.

:pancakes:

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