Even minmaxers are impacted by the story - just not to the extent that lore junkies are. Concern about the story isn’t a switch, it’s more of a sliding scale.
Ah… k
Nah Kyalin as much as I´d love to delude myself into thinking minmaxers and gearing focused players actually care for the idiocy they watch while playing, we both know THIs is NOT true. At the most they see the stuff in the most superficial cosmetic way ever (we both are rogues so for example tons of rogue players moaning in the class forums at the start of the expac over having to roll Kyrian/Ardenweald when they rather get the “cool” Venthyr/Maldraxxi armor and so on.
I’m afraid I can’t help but to apply the perspective that microeconomics left me with on this as with most things. Sorry, we don’t agree that this is true.
Well Kyalin, is the niche perception we both have “big” enough to make a proper (and when I say proper I mean Statistically representative and accurate) aseveration regarding this issue?
Cause I think we both may be wrong or maybe we are only partially right. Fact is, we don´t have access to actual data to know if people TRULY leaves the game over bad writting or merely over boring/overdone/redundant gameplay content -like in WoD-.
The fact Blizz pumped Shadowlands after BfA (the worst written expac out of all of them) would imply maybe story is NOT a huge factor regarding the general playerbase population; in-game content IS.
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Oh no, we don’t have access to data - and getting it would be a nightmare. I’d probably need a staff of 20 to adequately gauge this. But… if it were to attempt it, I would probably ask people who are playing as well as those who quit to describe their reasons for playing or quitting by allocating a hundred points across a selection of categories. Things like story, quests, PVP, etc.
I suspect that I’d find that in the overwhelming majority of cases, people would put at least some points in story. That’s because a video game’s story is a statistically significant piece of video game enjoyment (http^s://www.researchgate.net/publication/228364678_Why_they_enjoy_virtual_game_worlds_An_empirical_investigation). From there I can derive that depreciation in story content has a marginal impact on just about everyone - it’s just that in our case, that marginal impact is greater.
Doesn’t mean that it doesn’t diminish enjoyment of the product, ceteris paribus, across the board.
Yet more civilians died in the burning anyway so statistically speaking if you’re a civilian in a war against the Horde you’re more likely to die if you don’t fight back.
They aren’t defending themselves because the Alliance don’t target them and if you defend your homelands in a war you’re no different then a soldier.
As a result of the Horde declaring war on them, that’s something the Alliance HAD to do not something they decide they should do to punish the Horde.
To end up immediately releasing him so doesn’t count in the slightest.
Again read the one about seiging UC, Alliance HAD to deal with them.
Because he refused to surrender
I’m not repeating myself, any action the Alliance has to do to end a war isn’t a ‘consequence’ and doesn’t count.
They didn’t keep Saurfang and that was Sylvanas doing that so no, it doesn’t count.
No, I’m right and you’re wrong there were no Alliance imposed consequences towards the Horde during BFA, Syvlanas doing stupid S**t to hurt the Horde or military actions that the Horde forced the Alliance to do don’t count.
Probably because Andiun is king of the Alliance and when the Horde give back Night Elf lands(the one’s they didn’t destroy) he would’ve thought it ‘fair’ to give back the forsaken homeland seeing as Sylvanas isn’t in charge. Ofcourse Calia would be in charge and Horde would whine that she is an Alliance puppet and basically the same thing as being held by the Alliance but that’s besides the point
Come on, if BFA did end with Undercity being captured by the Alliance and not destroyed who honestly thinks it wouldn’t end up that way by Shadowlands.
Why redeem the Horde at all?
It seems like “redemption” for the Horde just leads us to have more characters like Thrall and Baine, who don’t really do anything other than try to not offend the Alliance.
That’s no fun. No fun at all. I don’t want to play a game with two factions and have to worry about what the other faction, my enemies , think about what I do. Instead I’d rather play the game to have fun. And havinv fun usually means actually doing something. And when is the Horde ever proactive if not when we have a Garrosh or a Sylvanas at the helm and are primed and ready to brutalize the Alliance.
I don’t really care about winning either. I mean yeah it’s great to win individual battles and zones but it’s also perfectly fine to lose battles and zones too so the Alliance has victories too. I don’t need to completely wipe them out, cause then the game would end. But I hate the idea that we need to toe the line that the Alliance draws. I hate the idea that we need to get along with them and sing campfire songs and be happy. I absolutely hate being on the same side as the Alliance in any conflict and every time I quest with an Alliance character all I can do is roll my eyes whenever they speak and hope to put a dagger in their back either physically or metaphorically.
The issue with Horde redemption is that it ultimately involves us getting along with or needlessly making amends to the Alliance since the actions people want redemption for are ultimately all involving things we did to the Alliance.
I just really don’t see the need to apologize. I’d much rather just stockpile more gasoline for the next fire. It’s a game after all, and I’m here to have fun.
So you agree to beat your face from time to time and be villains to yourself? Moan over your own corpse, over the next rebellious “shard”.
And the Alliance … Can the Alliance finally deal with genocide? For example, the defenseless Blood Elves. Not persecution on a professional basis, as in Dalaran, but a full-fledged purge or enslavement of Silvermoon City. At the same time, all “neutral cities” that belonged to the Alliance or the races that joined it will go to the Alliance.
Oh yes. Purge of Hyjal. As in Dalaran, but on a factional basis. Yes. “No revenge. Freeing up living space. Now run!”
The night elves will have some fun too. At the same time, there will appear their own recognized war crimes, equipped with cinematic videos. Yes, a Saurfang in the form of Shandris is possible. But until then - “smash, shred”!
And then we will be our own villains. It will be an interesting experience.
And moans. How many groans will be on the forums. Theorycraft! How much reading will be!
That seems a stretch when Genn still hasn’t reclaimed Gilneas.
Well if BfA ended with Teldrassil destroyed still, I wouldn’t see Undercity being returned to the Horde, no.
Forced the Alliance to enact… Consequences…
Weird you can’t just do a quick Google and see the first result.
I guess not that weird since it’d be acknowledging that you’re wrong. Which you’ve noted you’re utterly resistant to doing before.
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“Only Alliance civilians are allowed to defend themselves.”
Except those civilians killed by SI:7 agents at the SoL and Zandalari civilians at the BoD.
So…
“Only Alliance civilians are allowed to fight back and they remain as civilians. All others are the same as Soldiers.”
Do you see the double standard here? Because it’s obvious.
The Alliance had to impose some consequences on the Horde for their actions. Like seiging the UC.
They still captured him. Still a consequence. You just don’t like it.
Yeah, the Zandalari had the temerity to not tow the Alliance party line after their princess and seer were detained…
Why would he?
At that point the Alliance had already:
Kidnapped his daughter and heir and the grand seer
Chased them back to Zandalar when the Horde helped them escape
Destroyed his Navy
Killed his people for the audacity to defend themselves and their home
“BuT hE sHoUlD hAvE sUrReNdErReD”
You are, and you’re also illustrating you think that rules are different for the Alliance.
Still captured him.
Because the Alliance attacked UC. If the Alliance didn’t attack she wouldn’t have blown it up.
Sure it does. You just don’t like it.
You’re openly posting your hypocrisy with regard to actions each side are allowed to take. Like civilians are only allowed to defend themselves if they’re Alliance.
You’re very much not right. And you’re posting hypocritical stuff.
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How dare you defend your homes, Troll savages!
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The gleeful zeal with which you made this entire post comes across very creepy. Almost seems like you received some personal pleasure as you typed the words.
Regardless, I posted this earlier in the thread. The issue isn’t just that the Horde is being constantly made into convenient plot devices for new purple dispensers, it’s that they’re doing it while constantly being told how wrong they are and beaten over the head with guilt by their own faction. On top of that, they’re of course subject to comparison to the white knights of the Alliance. It comes across as Blizzard saying “you’re evil for just picking this faction and you should feel bad too!”
Personally, I don’t want to see the Horde constantly portrayed as savage genocidal xenophobic monsters. However, if that is how they want to write the Horde, just stop having every NPC constantly remind us about how wrong we are and how we fall short of the glory of the Alliance. Stop having these arcs designed to make us feel bad for things we didn’t even have a choice in doing. The perpetual combination of both is just disheartening.
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Exactly. If Blizzard would just pick a lane between Honorable and EVUUUUUL and stick with it I think we’d all be happier. They’re trying to have both, but only managing to frustrate everyone in the process. I played a Sith Inquisitor in SWTOR, I KNEW I was picking the evil team and I owned it. The game didn’t moralize at me, heck most of the time it enabled me regardless of my choices between good or evil.
If the Horde is honorable, we should be better than BFA made us to be. However, if we’re evil we should have never had a Civil War nor ‘Her Horde’ because we were on track for our kill quota. We can have that shady past and move forward as heroes or we can be the villains of the story. We can’t be both. Blizz needs to pick.
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This is insane enthusiasm. I wrote with the same enthusiasm about Tyrande killing Genn because he stopped her from killing Sylvanas like Varian did. It was with the same enthusiasm that I described the great death of the Night Elves. Acid-Drowning Orgrimmar.
I have to find my crazy plots.
Nah, we’re heroes to ourselves by being villains to the Alliance.
Sure.
No, you’ll be your own heroes by being villains to the Horde.
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As a side note, when did that happen to Thrall? He wasn’t like that originally.
Quite frankly, as bad as these two are in their current state, I would much rather have characters like them than more like Sylvanas and Wix. I actually do enjoy playing the villain when its settup properly, but that has never been the case with these two. They got away with 90 percent of the crap they did because of plot convenience demanding they did. There is nothing more empty and hollow than a villain that does that. Or a villain that is immune to even the risk of consequences. And players who revel in that are the types to revel in game mechanics always coming into protecting them.
I would also like a Faction that makes sense to exist, and I don’t just mean one that has to constantly get spared by the Alliance to continue doing so. But internally. As well as a Faction that doesn’t just exist to be contrarian to the Alliance (because, such a Faction still exists being defined by the Alliance).
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My conspiracy theory is that there’s a powerful contingent among the devs who really love WC2 and wish WC3 had never happened. They’re trying to write a WC2 Horde, but they’re stuck with the fact that WC3 (and early WoW) did happen. So either they force themselves to pay some lip service to an idea of the Horde that they don’t like but feel shackled to because it’s in the publicity material, or a smaller group of WC3 fans has to come in and try to preserve the WC3/early WoW version of the Horde after the WC2-fan devs have wrecked it yet again.
I vote for full evil Horde.
Blizzard has made great strides to make that happen already. So might as well get it over with.
The Warchief and their Horde rampaging across Azeroth sounds kind of fun.
They could still fight the big bads out of self preservation. This will probably make most Horde fans happy, this way they don’t need to be apologetic which seems to be unpopular.