2000 posts!
6 Likes
The conversation might have moved on from this specific issue (this thread sure moves fast sometimes) but in relation to what people were talking about regarding Alliance and Horde power levels, I actually made a thread on that over two years ago at this point, where I argue that making the Horde weaker actually also makes the Allianceās story weaker as well.
https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wow/t/a-weak-and-fractured-horde-causes-narrative-issues/33654
2 Likes
You know, to say that the Horde has a weaker narrative concept is correct, but you donāt notice that in-game.
I agree with Ganthithor, the Alliance and the Horde were made incompetent, but the incompetence is much more noticeable in the stronger faction - in this case, the Alliance, precisely because it should actually be stronger 
Thatās actually not what I said at all.
I said that the Hordeās power weakness is what feeds the Allianceās narrative incompetence, because if that were not the case, thereād be no story.
5 Likes
It would still be a story, just a story without a horde, but yeah, seems correct to me.
Iād say theyāve been around since Cata, but then it didnāt feel as egregrious when Malf was holding Darkshore together or when Thrall Ctrl-Alt-Deleteād Deathwing. Both at least established that it was either their limit or they needed a very specific circumstance to achieve what they were doing. Legion was definitely when they kicked it up a notch, but BFA is when they really let it go wild.
As for neutrals, Iām hesitant to call Dhadgar an Alliance Neutral because he hasnāt been one since like WC2. Definitely the best true example of a neutral character that weāve worked with over the years, even if his roots are in the Alliance. I didnāt even bat an eye when he told me he wouldnāt take sides, because he never had the entire time Iāve known him since BC. Plus, I just think heās great. Iām glad he sat BFA out.
They may not be the craziest fish in the sea (See Jailer punking Anduin, Jaina, Thrall, and Baine), but it creates a pretty stark comparison when we do compare their achievements and showings on an individual level. I think thatās where a lot of my personal grievance comes from.
Here I have to say it actually broke with the Khadgar from WC2 and BC, WOD, BFA we knew, the Horde under Sylvanas was a threat to Azeroth through and through, this has nothing to do with the Horde per se but for what Sylvanas stood forā¦it threatened the safety of Azeroth as a whole, the survival of the world. As such, Khadgar would have been one of the first to rise up and stand against Sylvanas, as he actually would have.
I really donāt think so. He mentions he has friends on both sides and that he refuses to fight them. He goes to bat for the Horde in both WoD and Legion, defying Jaina both times, and likely ended up with two successful campaigns because of it. Him trying to find another way to end the conflict through Karazhanās library and consulting Medivh felt about right for where we had left him after Argus.
Stand against Sylvanas? Maybe. Stand against the Horde? Definitely not.
6 Likes
The problem was that Sylvanas was the warchief, so going against her meant going against the horde.
Which is why he didnāt.
He has friends in the Horde. Aethas, Liadrin, Thalyssra, Garona, the Horde PC and a few others Iām sure Iām forgetting are all people he probably doesnāt want to fight. He just came out of two campaigns where unity was the key to victory, Sylvanas included. Heās allowed to check out and try and find Option C after all that.
5 Likes
I agree. Also, he never once treats the Horde PC with anything other than respect and courtesy, which I really appreciate.
He was off in his interdimensional confab with Medivh at the time Sylvanas started making trouble. To this day, it has not been established that he knows anything about whatās been going on back on Azeroth. In fact, didnāt they tease a bit of a mystery about where heās been since we saw him last?
He wasnāt trying to find a way to end the Alliance-Horde conflict; he was trying to find a way to heal Azeroth from the giant sword wound that was (at the time) supposed to be a big deal.
6 Likes
In exploring EK, they reveal heās still in Kara and that heās hoping that the peace sticks. Heās also trying to repair Curator. So, yay!
That he was. Priorities in order as always. Even if he did send me to pick up coins he dropped for his girlfriend that one timeā¦ Multiple times.
1 Like
Neutral characters, well, my attitude towards them is rather averse, honestly, from the alliance point of view he must be a traitor, you know, if you go through an existential crisis and a possible ally turns away, a war hero even, who swore loyalty to the alliance (just by the way, ne)ā¦then you would call that a traitor. From theHorde-Pov, sure, a win for the Horde in that the Alliance has one less powerful mage, but why does it have to be one of the Sons of Lothar? One of the big 5 heroes of the Alliance of Lordaeron, one had already made Tyrion to it and with him the suitable background.
I donāt know, just imagine if Orgrimm had become/was absolutely neutralā¦that would be to compare.
An Orc character who is front and center, unabashedly not evil, and leading the charge against world destroying foes? Sign me up!
The only requirement would be for him to remain on friendly terms with Thrall like Dhadgar does with the Sons of Lothar.
11 Likes
That, but after that this character also says, in a war where the other faction is trying to wipe you out
āFU, Iām not doing anythingā
Iād accept āIāve met many fine Alliance and Horde soldiers during these past few years. I do not wish to raise my weapon against either. I will focus my attention on more pressing matters, such as this giant axe that a Void Lord left in the Plaguelands. Who does that?ā as an appropriate excuse.
Honestly, Iād love some big old school Horde names to take the lead for neutral content like Khadgar did. But, ya knowā¦
Theyāre all dead. In both timelines.
12 Likes
You know, none of this wouldāve happened if Volājin was still alive.
10 Likes
these āherosā were for the most part war criminals you are talking about.
The old guard of the horde that are always talked about were horrible war criminals and warlords, and that was even before WOD and that wasnāt a retcon or anything, that was the orcs that shaped wc2.
Orgrim, Thrall, those were exceptions to the rule.
By Alliance standards, yeah. Hopped up on felblood. Kilrogg was relatively chill and honorable even with the blood, maybe have him survive his death at Danathās hands. Heck, Kargath never even set foot on Azeroth, even if he was a sadistic jerk, but he did become one of Illidanās crew and Illidan is good soā¦ thatās a thing. AU Grom is always an option in a Light-themed Xpac to work towards redemption (What Groms do best!). AU Nerāzhul could have been spun around from his desperation if he knew he had the support to resist the Iron Horde. There were options. Blizz simply never cared.
5 Likes
Really only for alliance standards? Really only there? The neutral factions, alliance, they all seem to have about the same moral understanding, by the way a similar attitude have Titanforgeds, as I said, letās not do anything away, you can say the alliance was simply given the ādefaultā standart, it made blizzard easier to write the whole thing, something I chalk up to myself, but itās not just the ALLIANCE standart and to function as a neutral hero you have to be accepted by both sides, if thatās not the case then you can forget neutrality.
And Iām only talking about the MU here, not the AU: The AU Cast was really wasted for thisā¦āiron Horde dooooh powerfullā¦or notā Doohā¦Plot
1 Like