A Weak and Fractured Horde Causes Narrative Issues

I have been mulling this issue for the past few days based in part on my exchanges with a few people on these forums, and I feel like there is one particular issue that sometimes goes unnoticed, yet is fairly significant in how the writers structure the narrative - whether they are aware of it or not. That issue, as you may have guessed from the title, is that a large part of the problem with writing the faction conflict is that the Horde has become too weak to properly tell the story. Not only does it make the Horde story frustrating, but it also makes the Alliance story frustrating because they have to be artificially hamstrung in order to keep the narrative going.

I have heard a lot of “Where is the Vindicaar?” “Where is Jaina/Alleria?” and so on. These are good questions, and it’s not as if Jaina or Alleria are somehow combat-averse, but the problem is that they have been elevated in power to such levels that we, the players, rightfully expect them to be walking forces of destruction - and that’s a problem. It’s not a problem necessarily because of power creep (although I have my own reservations about that), but it’s because the Horde has been given no means to reasonably counter their power. Likewise for the Vindicaar, and so in order to even have the semblance of an epic war between world powers, one side has to hold back lest the other be defeated immediately. This isn’t even to mention the fact that Horde weakness is pretty clear even in their own story, and rankles more than a few players in its own right.

A weak Horde is a Horde that must resort to atrocities and superweapons to fight, because they are given no other means to achieve any kind of parity. I would guess that everyone, even Forsaken fans, is probably tired of seeing the Blight at this point, but because all of the Horde’s other military forces and notable weapons have been torn down or just not developed, it’s rapidly devolved into a one-trick pony. The Horde being the faction of atrocities and superweapons is fun for almost nobody. It’s not fun for Horde players who dislike feeling like villains in their own story. It’s not fun for Alliance players who are unable to stop these superweapons, because doing so would instantly rob the Horde of any semblance of military parity and thus make the story collapse in on itself. A Horde that can’t fight back on even terms is a Horde that can’t be attacked full-force by the Alliance. Fracturing the Horde just exacerbates this problem, as a Horde that is fighting itself shouldn’t be expected to be able to fight back against a unified foe.

To wit, these factors make the story predictable. The Horde sounds one-note villain drums as they hit the same tactics over and over again, increasingly featuring the same races and characters over and over again. Disunity prevents the Horde from developing enough strength to fight the Alliance on even terms. So the Alliance has to pull its punches. The development of other characters is now essentially on hold while the civil war narrative sucks all the oxygen out of the story. The Alliance is portrayed as very close to winning in 8.1 - but because we know the Horde is incapable of fighting back, that limits the directions the story can go. Either an atrocity brings them back in the game (Derek) or a third party strikes a blow instead (Naga), and it leads to a very unsatisfying experience for everyone. That, or painfully obvious plot armor allows a Horde counterattack to succeed somewhere when the deck is stacked against them.

A stronger Horde may not necessarily produce more satisfying conclusions - nobody is going to win, because that’s how the faction war works. But when the Horde is weak and incapable of dealing with the Alliance’s vast array of weapons, it causes the story to distort around the “there must always be two factions” bit, rather than that theme being maintained in a more logical sense of two superpowers unable to strike the killing blow against each other.

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Very well said Jellex. Seeing one super weapon being given the okay while the other isn’t is frustrating, especially in a faction war expansion, with stakes as high as they are. Pulling punches should not be an option for either side. And the Alliance appears to be doing it regardless!

It has to be the reason we see something on the Alliance losses and not Horde, too. The Horde was still hurting after WoD and Legion, and yet not a word after BfA starts. Just leaves Alliance feel weak or stupid, and the Horde feel neglected or confused. Everyone is suffering different narrative worse, and nothing said brings much confidence that it will change.

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I just want to see the alliance use a superweapon so we can see how they react to bombing a questionable target.

I am just afraid they will blow up a military base after evacuating all the horde non combatants and offering them 8 chances to surrender.

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Either Blizzard would justify it or the Alliance fanbase would.

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I mean, apart from the 8 chances to surrender, that’s basically what happened to Theramore. The Alliance seem to consider that a horrific war crime, but I bet they’d change their tune if they were the ones doing the bombing. (To be clear, I’m talking about NPCs as much as players here.)

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I want to see the Alliance invent and ramp up the use of drone strikes that always end up killing more civilians than military targets.

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Well, I mean, the superweapons aren’t really the point - it’s more about how the Horde is forced to use them because the narrative has boxed them out of other options.

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And how the Alliance never uses theirs because their narrative is of honor, justice, fair play, and rainbows.

I think this thread could do more to outline why this disparity in story telling is a problem since, from Blizzard’s perspective, this very much looks like the story is working as intended.

When the Alliance story is “defeating the evil Horde warchief” then the Horde employing a super weapon just makes the Horde look more formidable and nefarious which just adds to the Alliance’s story.

When the Horde story is “defeating the evil Horde warchief” all the same reasoning applies.

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The Horde does have toys to play with, they just don’t ever use them with the Horde. Like, ever.

The Blood Elves and the Nightborne are the world’s best magi, rivaled only by the Kirin Tor, a neutral power. While experience can only help someone so much in the martial arts before they’re subjected to the same circumstantial bonuses and penalties that everyone else can triumph or perish from, magic is different in that it’s a study to master more and more powers. It has no rules, is not expected to obey the physical rules of combat and is completely subject to the whims of writing, this being one of the instances where age can directly benefit a character’s strength.

The Forsaken have already used blight to heaven and back, no further need to mention that.

The Goblins have technology. They have the smart-rock which gives them the license for full on wild and wacky mad scientist creations. That gives even play against the Gnomes.

Lastly, the Horde core races have shamanism. They are the heart and soul of it. They are on a personal level with the elements themselves, they can call upon them in a way no-one else can.

Between the magic, technology and shamanism, this should put them on par with the Alliance’s magic, technology and divine powers. The only difference they have is tactics, which the Horde sort of falls short on for being Mongolian-esque but sort of make up for it in soldier physique.

On paper, anyways.

They just don’t really explore any of that.

Regarding the Vindicaar, if they need the Horde to have the means to counter it, just use magic. Have an entire cabal committed to keeping it discombobulated and teleporting it throughout different parts of space.

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I doubt it’d be that simple. Remember it took all the Archmages of the Kirin Tor to teleport Dalaran to the Broken Isles, and they needed time to channel and focus. And the Vindicaar isn’t too much smaller than Dalaran is (Though in game depictions of Dal are shaky)

Blizzard just loves to utilize Orcs and Forsaken, so the other aspects sadly get pushed aside. Hell, even shamanism is as well, cause I guess they want Orcs to be as musclebound meathead as possible for… really no discernible reason. Really having a hard time remember a shaman character cropping up as a big player in Horde stories, though the lack of characters overall probably plays into that

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Can we just stop having super weapons be a plot point.

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… I would argue that it might take less power and focus to teleport something if you don’t care where it ends up, or in how many pieces, and also that people who have been specializing in spacial and time magic might have a leg up on the task as opposed to a bunch of (admittedly powerful) generalists.

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I just imagined the alliance high command on the vindicar when jaina suddenly has a traumatizing flashback to dalaran. Then shouts, “look out it’s coming right for us,” smashes the fire button, and it cuts to an orc farmer holding a pitchfork being vaporized.

Those horde forces were aggressively defending their homes. With poisonbombs strapped to children. Who were on fire. And they were using gallywix’s cannon to fire them at stormwind!

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Honestly? That’s kind of what I want. Their presence annoys me, but until they even the scales a bit, we’re going to continue having this problem.

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I can definitely see the Alliance war campaign accusing the Horde of using civilians as shields.

I am all for it, though like in history to the modern age, war escalates with technology. We’d need some sort of calamity to reduce the world’s populace by an extreme amount, so that there’s a good chance that these technologies are lost and are left to either be re-discovered or left in the dust.

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When we’re talking about getting rid of “superweapons” do we just mean created things like the Blight and the Vindicaar or are we including super powered characters as well?

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What would be, in your opinion, a lore-friendly way of getting rid of these super weapons? I found the way artifact weapons were “depowered” fairly reasonable as far as the legion arc was concerned. But could something similar be applied to characters relevant to the current story without making it an obvious attempt at evening the playing field?

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Super powered characters are worse than super powered weapons. Hell they are really bad when there isn’t a balance of the powers.

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Last I checked the Xenadar was blown up with 1 fel blast and the Horde beats Jaina to a pulp before she retreats while she is using her flying ship so I don’t see the problem.

The one “issue” to me is that character power levels are constantly changed to fit the situation. But I think that’s just going to happen in any rpg because they have to make the threat seem scary but also beatable when you fight it.

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