Forests aren’t a necessary component for shamanism.
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True but I was trying to see if Orcs can move away from their warrior warmongering nature when NEs are threatening their borders because now they are more warlike due to recent events.
Do Orcs over correct and become pacifist apologists and let them have it or go more down the warsong route?
I didn’t get that at all from that statement. Shamanism isn’t pacifism either.
Personally I don’t think horde needs to be in Ashenvale. I’d like to see the horde put efforts towards making the south more livable, such as doing more in Un’Goro. Seeing the most wild and inhospitable place and going “yeah I can make a home out of that” is pretty Horde no?
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Its the literal way to interpret it. Why do you think Teld was so completely removed from the Horde side of the story that even Baine didn’t get to comment on it? Truly, that event was essentially absent from our side of BfA after the WoT. Because Blizz could not figure out a way to prevent much of the Horde from rebelling against Sylvanas immediately after she made them complicit in that event. So they wrote it out, and created Derek several patches later to be the “allowed” impetus for rebellion.
Its the same crap as with Garrosh. The Majority of the WC3 Themes and those leaders that represent it were suppressed so Blizz’s forced in place Warchief could use the Faction the way it needed to … to settup future content. They were allowed to rebel, the moment Blizz deemed it convenient for the Meta-Narrative they do so. Not one moment sooner. Then that WC3 Horde was used to save the Faction mechanically after.
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If that can work then great. But I feel that the whole Orc vs NE in Ashenvale is too much of a popular franchise to ever end.
The one things in BFA I felt was missing was the Horde self-observation of what they were doing, the whole time it felt like “Oh I guess we are in a war now, not sure why but just got to stick it to the Alliance” and the redemptions that Gantrithor is talking about kind of feels the same way.
Unless we are doing the “we did nothing wrong, take it up with Sylvanas” mentality.
Yeah sorry. Its just that the Horde is trying to move on when there is an unpaid tab.
So what I was trying to say was can the Horde pay the tab and still move on?
Was Teldrassil or the War of Thorns not mentioned during the Baine arrest quest? I thought it was, but I might be misremembering since I only did the war campaign once.
I think there might have been a one-off mention or two, but not really any detail.
It was mentioned in really offhanded manner by Lor’themar if you talked to him after Baine was arrested. That’s about it. Baine was never allowed to talk about it himself as far as I can remember. Beyond that though, once Blizz was done with us in the WoT … Blizz did not allow anyone but Thrall and Saurfang to have an opinion on it. And those two were deliberately kept distant from the main Horde for most of the story lol!
We were a Plot-Device. Which is why the Horde wasn’t allowed the “luxury” of motives to be the aggressors in a War we were told from the offset we could never hope to win; unless the Alliance were hit with the stupid and nerf sticks. Which is why Teld had to be ignored after the WoT to keep the faction in line. Which is why Derek exists, as he was the approved patch impetus for dissent and rebellion to start. Not Teld.
God, its wonderful to be the Forced Proactive Force without motives in a Story; while the faction with ALL the motives in the world has to remain a Passive Reactive Force due to some BS purity test Blizz feels the need to maintain. Best writing philosophy ever. The Horde HAS to be the aggressors without motives, because the Alliance can never be even with tons of motives stockpiled for years. Kudos Blizz. Love that artificial shine. Even the leader of the Alliance’s CIA has less moral ambiguity than a Teletubby these days.
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Unfortunately, you’re probably right. Ashenvale is the cheap “break glass in case we need conflict”
BFA was missing a lot of things, and this was one of them. As factions the Horde wasn’t allowed to be characters, neither was the Alliance. They use character to be microcosms of the wider world but it’s not great because the wider world inconvenient to what they want to do.
You’ll have to discuss this with someone else because tbh my opinion changes a lot so I don’t have a place to confidently argue from. I just… I dunno this is just all wack. I’ve never seen a franchise handled so poorly and of course it’s the one I grew up with and care about.
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If I understand correctly, Thrall’s stuff was mostly cut because Metzen was undergoing / recovering from neck surgery. I’m not sure if the plot would have improved any had the character been around earlier, though. I figure the player character would have to have been railroaded through the same steps as usual anyway.
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Considering they railroaded everyone else, I would wager that Thrall would have been the victim of the same priority. To allow Sylvanas a chance to do what she needed to do to settup SLs, with the Horde really just being a vehicle towards that goal. And the Alliance a passenger in that horrible ride. Neither Faction were really that important to this supposed Faction Conflict story. Its sort of weird that way.
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Look Micâh, I can understand you guys feeling impotent thanks to the Cata to BfA chain of fiascos, and the focus of these are the playable Horde faction. This means that the “attonement and redemption” WILL inevitably impact Horde players, either because it´s made EVIDENT in our own gameplay (like you know… neutral characters in neutral zones pointing the Horde burned Teldrassil et al) or because some rando Ally poster will come here to make us remember THE HORDE did X, Y and Z and in their personal opinion, the story STILL has not portrayed the Horde as making “adequate ammends”. This has been our freaking gameplay AND forum lives for 2 years + and counting.
Let´s say the devs do what you ask: they portray in-game (cause sorry but my forum experience since MoP is that if it isn´t being shown 24/7 in-game then it doesn´t exist, reason why players STILL QQed over Ashenvale staying as a “neutral map” post MoP even whilke it was lorewise Nelf exclusive) quest chains or Alliance only scenarios or shared scenarios to portray Horde helping the Nelves rebuild Darkshore so it phases to Alliance exclusive once again and maybe make the Ashenvale map Alliance and same with Gilneas and same with Theramore -and this one would be like massively unfair but ok, there are still posters QQQing and REEEing about that city too- and same with Tarren Mill and Arathi phases Alliance exclusive too.
Then I bet we will have here people STILL complaining cause Alliance “is still being portrayed as being “weak” cause they haven´t erased cities from Horde territories as shows of power like Horde did”. Let´s say devs concede and give that too: Alliance characters blown up from the map two additional Horde cities: one of the capitals (cause Undercity being lost for Horde players never counts for these types of posters) and one of the medium to small cities (say Stonard) with ofc the usual Bronze NPC that can switch it back at gameplay´s will. I would like to imagine those Alliance NPc would get the full brunt of the villain bat (including neutral NPCs complaining to you guys about you guys acting evil), but NONE of the usual suspects pro-Alliance have ever expressed agreement with this apart from Kyalin once.
After such “reparations” to the Alliance playerbase, do you think you guys will finally leave our faction alone or do you think STILL more things have to happen for the Horde faction to “properly atone for”?
Cause after this, I´d only ask for the same thing I´ve been asking the whole freaking thread: NO MORE ALLIANCE / FORMERLY ALLIANCE / ALLIANCE FLAVORED NPC´s OF ANY KIND POLLUTING WITH THEIR INSUFFERABLE PRESENCE MY HARD EARNED HORDE EXCLUSIVE DEVELOPMENT IN MY GAMEPLAY. AND NO MORE HORDE PLAYERS QUESTING UNDER JAINA, ANDUIN, TYRANDE, TURALYON, ALLERIA, NESINGWARY, MAGNI, ETC. IN NEUTRAL CONTENT.
Hard work for Blizzard indeed. Cause the two things (redemption AND punishment) can´t coexist. I suspect not many of my fellow Horde posters nor even too many of the fellow average Horde players would be able to stomach this accumulation of “events” but I guess if the reward is we finally getting to play protagonist for once without villain bat involved then we could. It would hurt A LOT and will absolutely demolish any semblance of desire to get interaction with the other faction but it´s what needs to be done. Cause I personally can´t continue to play as the glorified babysitter of Jaina while the grievances I have regarding her character´s actions continue to be ignored and ofc, will forevermore stay unpunished, for example. And I can´t continue playing as the babysitter of the Kirin Tor while the magical cast of the Horde collects dust and the only one to get used is Aethas to make him into worse memes. And so on and so fort.
I suppose this means that, in regards to ME, no those “cute interfaction collaborations” will never exist. Cause the moment Blizzard decided to use in such an irresponsible and stupid way the word “genocide” to refer to actions being done by one of the playable factions, was the moment any semblance of “holding hands while playing kumbaya” died as a satisfactory path for players in both sides of the fence, period.
Oh yes, it absolutely can. Can you guys pay your own tab A.K.A. sometimes you WILL have to take orders from Thrall et al regardsless of the past in actual NEUTRAL content or better yet, none of your NPCs ever bother us Hordies and the content gets effectively halved cause devs WILL have to work in story beats independent for BOTH factions?
Cause I am all for it. It sucks for the PvPers but then again, this mess was caused precisely trying to appease them.
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Sadly the only way to redeem the Horde would require actual work by the writers and they don’t want to put in the work. They would rather focus writing their fanfics about their favorite characters rather than actually building the world. Its part of the problem with the universe at the moment as it has been condensed down to a handful of characters.
What we need are new writers who will take control of the lore and rather that trying to retcon it or ignore it move it forwards constructively. We need them to sit down and start planning out these expacs far more in advance and better planned so we don’t have an experience like BFA again. We need them to work on building resolutions to events like WOT rather than ignoring them and show that work in the game and external media.
Both Factions need better writing as we are all part of the same story and one being written badly affects the other faction just as much. The Alliance and Horde need to developed so that they both have a place in the story but are distinctly different from one another.
The current Senior writers need the sack as they are just pushing out the same rubbish that lead to BFA.
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Regardless of why they are there, they do end up attacking civilians. And that is clearly shown in the same video you linked, so…yeah. I would consider fighting Druids and SI:7 throughout Undercity as we try to get the remainder of the civilians out as “Battle started,”. And before you reply no, watch everything before 7:25…
If they had tried to do the same thing at Undercity, it would literally just be the leaders. Even when Lor’themar officially joins the Rebellion, he says he wasn’t sure his people would follow him and that is towards the end of the war.
You can’t just up and decide to rebel, there is more complexity and strategy to it than that. You cannot rebel without people, and even in the end the Rebels and Alliance barely had enough to siege Orgrimmar.
And ultimately Saurfang decided against it due to the lives that would be lost. You have to…just look at the reasoning. Put two and two together. Rebellions don’t just pop out of thin air, and despite Teldrassil, there really isn’t incentive for the people of the Horde to join Saurfang in rebellion. People in-game are not all knowing of every detail and perspective like us, or know as much as leaders. Sylvanas played her hand very well in not turning the people against her(Until she just calls them trash and leaves).
So overall, at the start, there wouldn’t have been any support and nothing would’ve changed.
As for the Council, I believe comparing them to real life history is a bit of a stretch. But nonetheless they now don’t have someone in absolute power. Warchief is in essence an Absolute Monarchy, what they says goes.
Now with a council, they have to vote on matters- including going to war. And with the new Leaders that is very unlikely unless given a good reason.
Lor’themar Theron
Mayla Highmountain
Baine Bloodhoof
Thalyssra
Gazlowe
Rokhan
Gey’arah
Kiro
Talanji
Ji Firepaw
Lilian Voss
Thrall
Those are our council members(Honestly think there should be more due to NPC members of the Horde, but that is another topic I am salty about). A vote was already brought up about vengeance for Rastakhan, which was overwhelmingly shot down. With only Talanji, Rokhan and Gey’arah in favor. Most of these leaders are friendly with Alliance a lot of times, or at least neutral. We got rid of all the wild cards of the Horde, Sylvanas and Gallywix.
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Here is the thing about this the council means nothing. The writers gave the horde a “council” simply so the different horde factions could act independently without having a full civil war again. The writers are just going to use it as an out for Horde aggression going forwards. They can have Talanji attack the Alliance for her revenge yet so long as the rest of the council condemns and keeps the peace with the Alliance they can return everything to the status quo.
Just because the Horde has a council doesn’t mean its individual members won’t be hit with the villain bat when the writers want Horde aggression. Its just easier for the writers to make the horde aggressive faction without villain batting the whole faction again, or at least that is how the writers will see it.
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If that happens, I will laugh so hard at all the claims that the council guarantees the Horde will never be aggressors again.
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That logic can be put to the Alliance as well, lol. I can’t help that your a pessimist.
Unlike the Alliance(Which is what it is, an Alliance of nations), the Horde is still a unified body, a unified people and government. They still cannot act independently in such a manner your saying.
If one were to disobey the decision of the Council it can be presumed that they would put them in place or even remove said leader.
So while you can spout about your pessimistic thoughts, nothing like your saying can really be said for certain- and in my honest opinion does not seem realistic at all with how the government and Horde is set up.
This paragraph shows a complete failure to understand how WoW’s story is written. The Horde doesn’t do bad things because it never learns. The Horde does bad things because writers and game designers in a studio decide the Horde needs to do bad things in order for the game’s story to progress.
So any “tangible and meaningful repercussions” against the Horde would have no effect on the Horde’s future behavior.
This paragraphs repeats that fundamental misunderstanding. It also shows a galling lack of respect for the topic by accusing people better in touch with reality of dishonesty.
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The Old Horde were pretty good at paving roads until they ran out of Draenei.
No, both sides are suffering, that much is clear. Difference is, the Alliance is the one who loses by having the fourth war be largely ignored, like it has been so far.
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