Oh defiantly. I must have some kind of Sylvanas mental block, because she is an obvious one.
It’s progressive the same way Disney is progressive. Disney will remake Beauty and the Beast with a number of POC actors playing small, token rolls. And spin Bell into some Feminist figure, which will have zero relevance to the plot of the movie. They will put a Black Actor center of attention in their new Star War movies, despite him not having that big of a role in them. As if they are taking some kind of stand on social justice. But when it comes to Chinese Concentration Camps? Lips Zipped.
ACTUAL virtue signaling. “Give us money because we’re not racist”
With Jaina? When? Because immediately after the Blood Elves were forced to suck it up in front of the Throne of Thunder to work with Jaina because of Garrosh via Lorthemar?
And then during BFA when Blood Elves try to stop Jaina & Co. while us with Thrall & Co. are saving Baine, they are The Bad Guys.
No they weren’t lol
Correct.
It does not, as it does not resemble the questline-apology Aethas was forced to do, as well as the ignoring of the whole situation by Lorthemar.
Post on main instead of a two year old alt beloved, otherwise
*Nightborne voice * AN ILLUSION? WHAT ARE YOU HIDING
Ah there it is, the ol Freudian slip use of past tense for Horde and present tense for Alliance.
So you agree with the premise of the OP and literally over half of what I stated in the “problems” but you simply decided to posture against me for whatever contrived idiotic reason, amazing.
Because what you are saying IS LITERALLY WHAT I SAID.
You didn’t, you just gestured “But I guess you’re not satisfied!”
If your example was the spanish enslaving the invading Moors because they were moors in a very short timeframe of maybe two or three generations I would agree.
What you are actually talking about is racism using some historical reasoning much later to justify themselves. The africans they enslaved are generations removed from the very same Moors that invaded Spain and killed spaniards for conquest.
You are comparing apples to oranges and for someone who wants more racism it seems you are hesitant to allow the Alliance to have it.
Now, now, Disney put a lot of effort into that very special thank you message to the Chinese government at the end of their credits in the live-action Mulan remake
You know, I was actually excited for the live action Mulan movie, than when the whole thing with them filming it in the very city where the Chinese government is comitting genocide against the Muslims living there came out it made me throw up in my mouth.
I disagree with the spirit of this thread excluding Alliance opinions, I play both factions. You can disagree that a Classic character counts, but I feel it does, as that is the period of the Horde where I found most enjoyment from playing that faction. There is nothing to be gained by limiting discussion to merely “Horde” opinions. The fact that we can agree on some points despite me being an “Alliance poster” proves this.
And yet were and still are referred to as morenos.
You are insisting racism doesn’t have historical justification, your words being “for no reason”, within a racial supremacist logic, and you are simply incorrect, historically.
There is always an internal historical reason to the logic of racism. It is never without some history-based justification.
Spend an hour on any racist forum of your choice (Race Science Twitter, 4chan’s /pol/, or Stormfront) and you will see.
In fact, I would argue before racism can exist, the other ethnoracial/ethnoreligious group has to exist in the racist’s mind as a caricature, which requires historical and cultural positioning.
The notion that because a racist may have some historical justification (eg Daelin) does not make him not racist. That is incoherent. He hated all orcs. Simple as.
Of course, and yet nowhere in my OP do I state Alliance opinions are excluded.
Just weirdos who refuse to recognize the Alliance is too morally perfect, as you can see in the other thread.
BtS killed that idea. If Calia’s family were to shun her as an abomination, it would show that humans are actually more accepting of decaying zombies than they are of holy-glowing perfectly preserved undead, which makes no sense at all.
Realistically speaking, I know BtS killed the idea of irrational hatred being the default. Now it’s more apathy at best, and “Th3y 4 H0rd3!!111!” at worst.
But as Baal will show you the default has to still be “roar undead bad!111!” with no room for anything else.
No I am insisting if I was citizen of the Stormwind in the first war and the Horde invaded and did untold horrors I am justified to hate them.
I am insisting if a few dozen years later after peace has been struck by this Horde and they attack my people again I am justified in hating the Horde even if I initially forgave them.
I am insisting if I was a citizen of stormwind and this new Iron Horde invaded my lands and started killing my people it would surface old memories and make me hate the Horde more.
I am insisting if I was a citizen of stormwind and after my people and the Horde joined and beat back the greatest threat known to the world that this Horde would betray the Alliance and cause an atrocity very reminiscent of what I endured decades ago it would feed my hatred for the Horde even further.
I am insisting in this story if the citizens of Stormwind and Alliance did not hate the Horde there would be something wrong with them mentally or they are all saints or they all have meta knowledge.
That is what I am insisting and I find your attempts to compare the two scenarios with real historical situations occurring over hundreds upon hundreds of years very deaf tone and distracting.
And based on what he saw in last couple of years he was right to do so.
It makes him understandable. He was wrong but he had good enough reasons to hate the Horde.
And if anything the many expansions since his introduction they have made Daelin more logical than we thought.
Daughter of the Sea shantie touched on this.
Calia and Derek leave the Alliance to join the Forsaken, who are in the Horde.
They did not leave the Alliance for belief that everyone will hate them now that they are undead.
But the undead fantasy requires “humans hate us so we hate them raaar” so again, there we are.
So lean on that. Have Calia killed by Alliance backed Scarlets (because despite how much people may want to Turalyon to be a crazy loon, he’s…really not that.) and the Scarlets run to Stormwind and say “The Forsaken did it!” while the Forsaken say “We literally saw the Scarlets do it!” but the Alliance goes “Like we’d believe you shambling corpses!” so the Forsaken can continue the “Why do humans hate us! Death to the living!” that they require.
And that, within the logic of the game, is still racism, because you are hating all the members of all the races of a faction based on the actions of a prior group of people who belonged to a prior iteration of that faction that the current iteration is only tenuously connected to with zero prior leaders surviving.
You realize that the entire point of the Jaina questline, which apparently seems to have gone over your head, is the Kul Tirans including Katherine are/were all racist and Daelin was a self destructive racist that was so racist he wouldn’t listen to reason and Katherine realized this while saving Jaina in Thros?
Daelin is 100% unquestionably presented as a racist in the narrative. Sure, has a historical reason for that racism, but a racist all the same.
Down to the “monstrous” depiction of the Horde in the warbringer animation.
Doesn’t Calia/Derek say this tho? In that little Stormsong house pseudo cutscene questline?
Calia joins the Forsaken because the Forsaken are still her people (being a Menethil and all) and Derek follows her. He only mentions that he’s changed and while he’ll always be a Proudmoore he’d like to see where the Tides take him.
Neither of them make any implication they left because they expect everyone will hate them now.
So I say make them pay for that charactization and kill both of them. Have the Scarlets do it and blame the Forsaken. Now the Alliance hates the Forsaken again for more than just “raaaar undead bad” and the Forsaken this time without a fraction of a doubt don’t deserve the hate they get.
Calia Menethil says: Ah Jaina. What a relief to see you safe.
Lady Jaina Proudmoore says: Hello, Calia. Big Brother.
Derek Proudmoore says: Word has spread of what happened at Orgrimmar. Is the war finally over?
Lady Jaina Proudmoore says: It will take time for all the pockets of fighting to be quelled, but… yes, I believe so.
Calia Menethil says: Azeroth has seen so many wars, so much strife. I pray we have earned a respite.
Lady Jaina Proudmoore says: As do I. Have you been able to find peace in your own heart, Derek?
Derek Proudmoore says: I still have some rough seas to sail, but I’m much better now, thanks to Calia. Without her guidance, I would have been truly lost.
Calia Menethil says: I’m so grateful you brought us together, Jaina. This time with Derek has helped me as much as it’s helped him.
Lady Jaina Proudmoore says: In the wake of this war, others will need to find their footing. Their future. Perhaps you could guide them, too.
Calia Menethil says: I’m not sure how much help I could be. I don’t have all the answers.
Derek Proudmoore says: Maybe they don’t need answers. Maybe they just need hope. Like I did.
Lady Jaina Proudmoore says: Well said, big brother. Come, let’s take a walk. I am so grateful to have you both back in my life.
Lady Jaina Proudmoore says: Let’s enjoy this moment together.
We are judging the same people.
The people that were involved in the same crimes are still around and proud members of the Horde (Saurfang), who commit the same atrocities (Saurfang) over and over again.
This isn’t once or twice either. Its been several times already
Your argument doesnt hold water.
The only thing I really want is for Thrall to come to terms with the fact that he did abandon the Horde to Garrosh and he is personally responsible for the bad things Garrosh did. i want him to realize that his personal feelings for Jaina is failing the trolls, especially the Zandalari.
I want Gallywix exposed as the real threat to the Horde, especially since in BfA he was just stockpiling azerite and we really don’t know what kind of weapons he currently has only that he’s capable of a lot of needless destruction to get ahead.
Completely wrong.
Katherine forgave Jaina for not standing with her father at the time and she realized whatever Jaina did she would not have been able to save her father.
She even tried to reason with him until the very last moment to give peace a chance.
Nobody trusts the Horde. Not even andiun but he is willing to try. This isn’t judging people based on the color of their skin(race) but their character and the Horde has been found wanting.
That is why the Horde needs a redemption in the first place. If they didnt why have this thread in the first place.
You acknowledge Horde’s repeated transgressions over the short period of Wow and they need to be addressed and in the same breath villanize the Alliance for illogical hatred of the Horde for what they did.
Either the Horde did something bad or they didn’t and they are being unfairly judged.
Take your pick. You cant have both.
We know he literally has access to a giant, flying, killer robot whose cannons shoot out impossibly-powerful bursts of raw, Arcane magic made from the planet’s blood.
Forget Sylvanas; neglecting to stage a manhunt for Gallywix is like knowingly allowing a WWII German war criminal to run free while armed with a nuclear warhead.
