Funny how only you believed the “Horde” examples were worth mentioning until we called you upon your BS argument… but sure dude, I´m the “toxic” one.
Go pledge innocent to someone else, cause I don´t buy your retroactive attitude one bit.
If you haven´t noticed, the whole “Night Warrior” idea as per the dev team is basically a cautionary tale on how revenge is the BAD cause to use while in the quest of “justice”. ALL the characters that use revenge (up to the poster child Sylvanas) had gotten downplayed and/or straight down villain batted by the narrative while they stay faithful to this premise.
Consider yourselves lucky your OP tier racial leader didn´t get villain batted AND will keep the OP powerhouse levels, meanwhile Forsaken fans got… the MHP airheaded wet dream as a “reward”?
Better yet, if the Raison d´être of the Argent Crusade was to DEFEAT THE LICH KING AND HIS SCOURGE, then why the hell are they playing house in the Plaguelands now that there´s NO Lich King and the Scourge in runing rampant and free in Northrend et al? I mean one would think that they would RELOCATE to fulfill their organization´s founding GOAL instead of trying to lowkey steal Lordaeron territories for themselves.
But I have a suspicion on why some err… posters don´t see with good eyes losing Plaguelands AND Hinterlands. Remind me again those territories are the straight path to which Horde kingdom, again? And which race would benefit moar from keeping the access to that Horde kingdom, again?
I´m afraid we may be dealing with Helfers here, Droité.
Before I said anything at all about the Horde I was talking about Val’Sharrah, so again a mistake on your part, unable to read but …thanks to prove my point, EVERYONE can read it up.
Revenge if it went too far would be logical, clearly, but Tyrande focused her anger, her rage, all of it, not on the horde, but on Sylvanas, the …yes, responsible one. I don’t think that’s really retribution out of control, that’s even justice.
If she extends her retaliation against the Horde as a whole, killing every member of the Horde, everyone she comes across, then shouldn’t the Alliance support her and go after them and go after Sylvanas…don’t you think?
Vengeance and justice aren’t synonyms. They’re just easily accepted together in stories where the target needs to be stopped. Tyrande never got to the point where she started to lash out at anybody until right before she gets purified, which I think strongly weakens the intended message. Without her striking Shandris, it kinda devolves into “good person nodding goodly at good message.”
I figure it’s a bullet dodge from having a typical “revenge is bad” story played out to its logical conclusion.
Look, at the end of the day when it comes to Tyrande, as long as those VIBRANT neon headlights she has as eyes now actually means something, I think we’ll be OK. Especially if it means she’s sort of become a pseudo-incarnate of the Light side of Elune (placing her in a bit of an in-between mode between the Night Warrior and her original High Priestess status). And while it is frustrating that we don’t get to see any of those cinematics in 9.1 yet, hopefully it is something meaningful for her. As well as Shandris, who I am appreciative that she’s there for whatever phenomena they’re experiencing.
And … admittedly, Shandris (along with the Council of Three hammers members) are the BIG 4 on the Alliance Roster list I feel need custom models. With Rokhan, Gazlowe, Mayla, and Geya’rah for the Horde (because all four of them are so generic you’d be hard pressed to pick them out of a crowd. At least I can see when pointy armor Liadrin is wandering around). And low res Thalyssra is at least A custom model for the most part.
retribution is a form of revenge, it is perceived as rightful and retributive and just, the moral philosophical debate where retribution really becomes revenge is not quite to be classified, especially because there was usually a previous misdeed. As long as the perpetrator is the target, we are not really talking about uncontrolled vengeance.
As a matter of fact nope, go back and check your OWN post regarding the map provided by Kaileath: you mention the Horde BEFORE going in the tangential Aszuna / Val´shara mention in paragraph No. 3…
So yup, posters can indeed go back and read all about your opinion on the matter (funny how also you mention Horde only gaining and Alliance only losing in the inmediate post).
Tl;dr: you fool nobody, dude.
Of course, but then again Sarm, had the devs stopped her any later then they would have to kill her. And they NEVER had that intention, as per usual regarding Alliance heroes, the narrative will conveniently save them before they get into villain batting territory proper.
I don’t - and let’s be clear here. Sylvanas wasn’t villain batted out of a need for a cautionary tale. Sylvanas was villain batted because they ran through their Warcraft 3 roster and wanted another excuse for the Horde to go ham on the Alliance. What we’re watching right now is a flailing, ham handed attempt to tie a deeper message to it while trying to let Night Elf players down on the fact that we will never be allowed to meaningfully hit you back.
… and that people of your caliber routinely believe that Darkshore compensates for eleven years of humiliation capped off with an expansion where we lose our capital city and our starting area in the most brutal, visceral, most highly publicized and in your face way possible as well as two other zones … in exchange for getting one back as well as a moral admonishment that we’re bad people for wanting payback … just flabbergasts me. Like, you don’t actually believe that’s enough, do you? You don’t actually believe that such suddenly creates a meaningful or enjoyable experience, right?
And Zahir is correct on this point. The Night Warrior arc, as well as the Night Elf revenge arc went nowhere. The Night Warrior didn’t appear to actually do anything, it was undermined in its debut against Nathanos, and then after Darkshore we’re told “oh, the Night Elves got their revenge against the Horde, now you need to worry about Sylvanas” - who the Night Elves also aren’t getting revenge against now as the Night Warrior meanders into irrelevance because Blizzard felt that it was important to bench Tyrande in favor of Jaina.
Among the many misses and foibles of the wait-and-see crowd, that little pack of perpetual optimists who are so delightfully consistently wrong, about everything, all the time - those people were saying that the Night Elf story was good with Teldrassil, not because of the event itself but because the Night Elves would one day get their revenge - because that’s how stories of this type tend to work. The burning was held up as motivation to go fight the Horde and later Sylvanas - and for the reason of this motivation, it was regarded by those people as a “good story”.
Those people will never admit that they are wrong, but by now we have demonstrated that they are wrong. It’s not just the Night Warrior, the whole Teldrassil arc for us went absolutely and completely nowhere. We have nothing to show for it, we have nothing left after it - and to really drive that point in, I’m going to link a recent comment that I saw:
This is the boat I’m in. This is the boat that a lot of my friends are in, and this is in no way the first comment I’ve read on this. This is the fallout from the story direction that you appear to want to defend.
sorry, but…yes, it was here, my first post about this theme was 4854…check it for yourself, this was the start of the conversation, …so wrong again
if she had been in the Sylvanas raid…get a nice endcinema would have depicted a fight between the two, should she have been killed? Makes no sense to me.
i REALLY hope they will change the eyes a little bit. Make them more white, more like real pure moonlight/Starlight instead of this neon blue. in the long run, you’re bound to get a headache from looking at this intense blue light for too long.
From what I understand, retributive justice is not performed by the victim and isn’t meant to be personal. If the War Crimes novel had ended with the court deciding that Garrosh needed to be punished, that would have been retribution. Tyrande chasing after Sylvanas screaming in elvish is vigilantism.
Anyway, it stopped being controlled vengeance the moment Tyrande struck her own daughter. Theoretically, if Tyrande involved herself in the raid now with the goal of simply stopping Sylvanas instead of looking to hurt her back, that would be more along the lines of justice, because the mindset is different. So in that light, I can see how it sucks that she’s apparently not involved.
In my defense, I pulled that term from wikipedia because I was at least trying to scan the summary before completely talking out of my rear, hence my mention of a court trying to be the deciding factor instead of the victim. >_>
Well, admittedly, the word “controlled revenge” was an awkward choice of words. Vigilante justice is, of course, not a form of true justice in our modern world, because proportionality cannot be maintained (it is, after all, exceedingly personal in such a case), but, Warcraft is full of vigilante situations and that was never a problem before.
While taking the chance to bring another of their Kindergarden messages “revenge is bad” Look at ALL the characters that used revenge as a motivation: killed as villains of shamed and chastised but going back to lawful good (Uther vs. Devos, Sylvanas vs. Tyrande, Genn, etc.).
Kindly stop mistaking me for Garrosh fanboys Kyalin, I don´t give a censored word over Darkshore, never had and never will, period.
Do your job and go quote actual posters interested in humiliating your race, I frankly don´t give a rat´s behind over them and I just want to see them the less possible in MY gameplay, get that message through your stubborn skull already!!!
It went the same place Genn´s and Sylvanas´s place went: a kiddie cautionary tale. We all hate them simplistic moralistic BS tales designed for little children being used to chastise in our adult lives, but this is what happened and we will have to move on from that, period.
the most we can do is complain over getting those type of “messages” so devs stop fancying them in the narrative.
L2read, I NEVER defended the story was “good”… I just said THAT was the mediocre story the devs went for in BfA / SL. I just pointed how you people AT LEAST retained your beloved racial leader, forsaken fans didn´t even get that, no more and no less.
Or you think Lordaeron / Darkshore took the Forsaken ANYWHERE?
How about we quote the WHOLE post, hmm?
Oppsie!! Seems like you took your Horde territory issues BEFORe mentioning anything else. And look how much you do NOT say ANYTHING regarding you guys taking Twilight Highlands ALL for yourselves!!!
/sighs…
You were the one pointing out that had Tyrande gone TOO FAR a.k.a killing rando people opposing her, it would condemn her like Sylvanas. Ergo Sarm pointing to Tyrande getting “fixed” BEFORE she strikes Shandris -who would be the rando collateral in this case-. Look at how the devs retconned the Stonewraith into a former “Night Warrior” that managed to get her “Retributive Justice” and after went on and on until a buddy stabbed her in the back and kiulled her cause she had became a bigger menace for her people. This is but the complement to Tyrande´s Night Warrior arc. Does it suck? Yes. But Blizz devs seem enamoured with this type of BS narratives since forever, if not they wouldn´t have denied Sylvanas her own revenge back in WotLK.
Now I can’t help but picture Malf getting really into wearing sunglasses whenever he stares into his wife’s eyes. OH! Do you think that is the reason 9.1 is bringing out those glasses transmogs?
WoW’s questing is full of gameplay contradictions like that, hence that in-joke by one of the brokers that the player characters are under the delusion that they think they’re heroes.
I think this sort of thing just becomes more blatant and questioned when it comes to horde content, though. So when that sort of magnifying glass finally swings over an alliance character’s head, it looks weird. Especially since the last example (Genn VS Sylvanas) was portrayed as unambiguously heroic.
If I understand correctly, Tyrande actually does strike Shandris. It happens shortly before she’s purified, and it’s her first instance of redirected vengeance popping out before Elune’s Tear is created.
Come to think of it, I wonder if that’s supposed to be some sort of metaphor for just letting your emotions out through crying instead of keeping them bottled up in a self-destructive manner, but I could be reading too much into it.
It’s not the only reason ( at least not for me, but I’m a diehard Nathanos fan and will forever be salty that they built him up all this time just to ditch him in the end to give the Night Elves some sort of second hand retribution ), but I certainly wouldn’t mind more Rommath. Imho, he’s by far the most interesting blood elf character of the current cast.
She was the last existing danger for her people, all others - only possibly theoretical dangers - had been completely wiped out up to and including the last child. She was the only remaining threat to her people, and only after she was done, someone killed her, not before. if you ask me, rather…hypocritical from her people.
That, by the way, would be what I would call really…out of control vigilante justice.
Unlike you and most of your contemporaries, I actually actively want to see the Forsaken improve, rather than hiding behind some idea that because Blizzard made a mediocre story that we’re just stuck with it now.
On that subject:
Well how convenient for you. The Horde gets to destroy what I liked, and there you are standing in the way of rebuilding the Night Elves territory, reputation, and ability to look like even a contributor in the faction rivalry. You don’t like what happened, but you DO want to lock in all the benefits and leave the other side screwed.
The Garrosh fans are a different kind of biased Horde poster. You’re something else entirely. You massage and hide your bias, but it’s still pervasive, and it compels you to do things like defend the War of the Thorns (which you have done), or argue in favor of the Night Warrior arc going nowhere, because you don’t want it to interfere with your content - at all, in any way, no matter how limited it is.
Well, that’s never been a consideration that’s ever been extended to me. So I’m going to have to call that out for the double standard that it is.
