I suppose so. It just doesn’t click for me, but maybe I’m putting too much of my own perspective on it.
I feel like if I had a super recent history involving something like that, I’d just go “well my past is crap” and don’t see why that would be worth celebrating. And that seems like the whole point of of the clans dissolving. Their history led them to do Bad Things; remember it, but don’t start practicing it again.
Well, we know already that they didn’t take this lesson. But I don’t see the argument that the clan structure was somehow responsible for what the Legion was able to do.
I think it’s important to note that absolutely every culture in universe has been infiltrated and corrupted. Unless it’s an arguement to drastically change every playable races society, the reasoning is lacking.
It doesn’t seem as though Ancestry deals with halpogroups from what I’m finding.
Sadness. 23 gives you cool health reports too.
I saw that when I checked their website. Honestly, this was more a thing my spouse wanted to do for herself but I figured I’d do it for giggles. Now, given the apparent diversity it’s piqued my interest.
Doing 23 in conjunction with extensive family tree research slaps. Been doing mine for ten years, have 2500 or so people in my tree, and for the most part neatly lines up with the results, including obscure one-off ancestors (eg random singular Polynesian ancestor)
Halpogroup analysis is the coolest though because those are fixed since antiquity while the general ancestry reports are based largely on Modern genetic diversity within the logics of Modern Nations.
So the report tells you x% English or Spanish even though Spain internally has a lot of genetic diversity due to centuries of confluence.
The logic of the ancestry report doesn’t go further back that 1500s, so to speak.
But the SRY and MTC halpogroups are stable and change very slowly due to their being on the X and Y chromosomes and their location on the chromosomes (crossover and recombination only occurs in the middle to end of the segment, genes near the middle change less).
So in my case, I’m Black, White, and Indigenous, but my SRY is African (EM2) and my MTC is Amerindigenous (B). Meaning those two branches if I were able to trace them to like, early human settlement, would lead there.
Also 23 gives you useful reports of diseases or disorders you may carry! So I have one copy of a few things that alone does nothing to me but if I have babies with someone with another copy, 50% chance the kid would die. 
Gantrithor has literally nothing to do with you yourself coming here and declaring your inability to work on ideas to rebuild the Horde considering you are NOT a Horde fan… in a thread titled “How can we Redeem/Rebuild the Horde”.
And before you try to use my own refusal to work on Alliance suggestions in your thread, kindly remember your thread in which I declared this was titled “How can we redeem the HORDE” -ergo, in my esphere of interest. Notice how I am absolutely ABSENT from the “rebuild the Alliance” thread currently getting suggestions in this subforums; precisely because I don´t care for the Alliance therefore I don´t go there to try and tell Alliance players how their favorite faction should be built for them, period.-.
I´d say refusing to listen to reason and concocting a whole “persecution / victim complex” narrative to try and justify your attitude is even less reasonable, fair or respectable, but you do you… we already established you are waaay into your own persecution fantasy to have an honest discussion in here.
Errr… any type of content that doesn´t especifically involve players from each faction beating the censored word from each other as the goal of the gameplay content IS by default a PvE scenario, Kyalin… as a “veteran” of the game one would imagine you would know better (or this is just another one of your BS pseudo rationalizations like that one made looong ago in the WoD era? -you know… the one in which you tried to put all and every sin of Garrosh into Vol´jin´s shoulders cause devs were lazy and literally copy/pasted the old Cata quest chains into Vol´jin gameplay wise?-).
This is the reason why the forums weren´t drown in QQQ threads made by PvE players in reference to the WoT quest chain… cause this wasn´t a “why do I have to stress fighting other people irl, I hate it!!” scenario, it was simply a PvE scenario that told a PvP story, no more and no less… like Warfront Scenarios, that were too PvE scenarios.
Are absolutely and completely optional; the story of the game or the faction literally don´t revolve around the How and Why of the Warsong Gulch PvP objectives -I mean I ofc never ever bothered doing them… and this has NOT prevented me from advancing in the game up to par.
I´ll repeat: not everyt PvPer is a RPer, and the sooner you get this through your skull, the better for you. Cause then you WILL finally be able to understand why your idea was so useless and pointless for a lot of us.
Sure, and we aren´t Blizzard CEOs nor Investors nor any kind of people with the actual knowledge to issue these kinds of demands. We´re nobodies as far as qualifying the actual efficiency of Blizzard employees is related, period.
Oh, but PvErs aren´t the ones demanding their PvP narrative to become once again the focus of the narrative when all and every time this has been done so has been proven a colossal failure.
No, it´s called “acting coherently”.
I can´t go demand changes to the PvP talents for my class/spec combo when I don´t even PvP Kyalin… cause more probably than not, my “suggestions” will be waaay off the mark, or address nonexistant issues or devote time to issues that aren´t a prerrogative as far as rated PvP is concerned.
The very fact you encapsule this very simple communication premise as “insane and unreasonable” to the point you end up making “suggestions” full of bitterness says everything we need to know regarding how much you actually cared over the issue that is being discussed here, and the level of entitlement you feel when you literally nerd rage over we pointing to you several times THIS IS NOT A “FIX THE NELVES” THREAD.
Tl;dr: if the topic is NOT of your interest or you are physically and emotionally UNABLE to participate without derailing the issue into something you actually care about, then do the DECENT AND RESPONSIBLE thing and don´t say anything, period.
Nobody misquoted your suggestion when we correctly called it a bad ripoff of WC3 (up to including the Alliance AGAIN going after the Horde just to bother us) that served zero purpose into actual rebuilding of the faction themes (also saying the continent that´s half non farmable icelands and half plagued land -including a freaking living and merely contained Old God whose blood pollutes the aforementioned continent btw- has “more resources” than the current Horde territory is laughable. Northrend can barely sustain the races already living there, putting the Horde there and destroy the ecosystem just to get your Alliance power fantasy seems like a waste of time for me as a Horde player).
I see it more as pointless tbqh. What do Orcs like Gorgonna gain from getting their culture a step back instead of keeping wide access to every aspect of their race by proxy of no clan seggregation? (no seriously, think about it… anything related to the cultural differences on each clan were related to their day-to-day lives on Draenor a.k.a. the terrain they developed in. And considering MU Draenor is a bunch of fel infested rocks floating in pockets in space, this means the MU Orcs wouldn´t be able to experience and understand why Warsong used different hunting practices in comparison to Laughing Skulls, for them it would amount to a nice second hand tale and nothing else. There´s no significance to them seggregating their practices in closed clans when the actual model LET them use ALL of the cultural tools of all those clans).
Am I missing something about this loyalty test thing? I keep seeing Kyalin bring it up, but almost as a deflection to us recognizing that “rebuilding/redeeming” the Horde was more of an additional objective added on to her real goals with that PvP scenario. And part of the reason its not resonating with Horde players is because it doesn’t really address issues with the Horde Faction that the Horde players are concerned about.
Here was her list of how her scenario worked to help redeem/rebuild the Horde:
A. It redefines the Orcs’ more militaristic clans into a defensive role, allowing Horde PVPers in this particular area to fight for preservation rather than destruction.
B. It further explores Orcish clans - the scenario establishes that they come back and manifest in different ways across Durotar and the Barrens.
C. It creates a sympathetic character from whole cloth that Horde players would get to follow and identify with.
D. It has room for inclusion for other races (especially as we expand the scenario out, but we’ll stick to the Warsong bit in particular).
E. It avoids the large scale destruction that faction wars have typically accompanied, in favor of smaller, personal stories.
F. It allows the Horde to experience a technical loss in Ashenvale in a manner that does not feel like a loss - allowing instead for progression against an enemy, culminating in competitive content.
G. It does not extend into Ashenvale proper past the part that exists in the gulch itself, thus preventing the idea that the Horde is “beating up on the Night Elves” and retaining the defensive character of the Horde’s presence.
H. It freezes the conflict going forward in competitive content, allowing the “cycle” to be expressed in a lore-connected fashion in actual gameplay, thus ending the need for back and forth reprisals as delivered in lore.
Notice the problem? A tries to subvert Orc militarism by forcing them into a military conflict with their victims, who are seeking retribution. B, as many have pointed out, is a rather pointless (and potentially destructive) avenue for rebuilding the MU Orcs. C is the development of a new character solely to earn sympathy points enough to get the Horde playerbase involved in the PvP scenario. He’s a plot-device. D would include races without any consideration how their addition would help them as races. E-H have nothing to do with rebuilding or redeeming the Horde, but rather focus on getting a NE resolution and supporting PvP with story.
Is it any wonder why many Horde posters felt that the goal of “Rebuilding the Horde” was merely tacked onto a method to support “NE resolution” and “PVP on a story level” after the fact? And that no matter how much thought was put into that Horde goal, any success it might have had was kneecapped by the needs of the other two being the priority? And to some extent, that effort felt less like “How to help rebuild/redeem the Horde” and more “How to manipulate the Horde playerbase enough to get them invested in this scenario, because I can’t achieve my 2 goals without the Horde Faction’s involvement”. Am I alone in getting that vibe?
While I do believe that Kyalin is thinking more from a NE perspective than a Horde perspective, not every point is a horrible one.
This is fine in a vacuum. This is what Zelling/Zekhan were after all. However, I’m not a fan of a character that channels that same disgruntlement with my faction that I do like the mentioned farmer.
This is always fine. There is always a way to slot multiple Horde races into a singular area, specifically the Orcs, Goblins, and Darkspear. If anything, we should always be looking at fun new ways for our races to interact with one another. Pandaren/Zandalari Buddy Cop questline when?
This is what we actually need. Smaller and more personal stories to begin getting ourselves back on our feet. Specifically ones that utilize our preexisting underdeveloped cast. Unfortunately, using this in PVP is a good way to leg sweep us while we’re still trying to do said standing up.
Though the ideas may not be what we’re looking for when tied to that PVP scenario, these 3 points are something we do need to take going forward no matter what we do.
If you haven’t figured it out by now, I have a problem with the unfair manner that Horde posters have demanded the conversation be had. Fortunately, your post provides me with the perfect opportunity to explain one such manner in which you and your community does this.
In this series of threads, Horde players have repeatedly tried to deny me from offering suggestions - typically on the basis that I can’t also address other issues at the same time, or due to the mere fact of my own biases that my own argumentation will never be “pure” enough for their liking. Droite’s argumentation is purposely elastic to shoot anything down that isn’t complete groveling to the Horde, and it was only through a process of trying to beat it out of people could I even get a conversation really started on whether it was a good idea to bring the clans back.
But the overwhelming message here is “Night Elf fans can’t talk about Horde problems.” which I find interesting.
Why? Well, let’s consider this.
You may be, but your compatriots aren’t. The most common reply that I get from Horde fans is a whataboutist claim about how Horde races have problems too, with the subtle implication that I’m not allowed to talk about Night Elf issues (most of the time this is a flagrant distraction play). In suggestions threads, those same posters turn up to demand why I haven’t taken the Horde into account, or what could possibly be in it for them. I’ve also caught no shortage of accusations that I only care about the Night Elves and never address other issues, which I find unfair because a) it’s false - I talk about issues on the basis of principle, which brings a lot of Horde issues within the realm of discussion, and b) because I don’t feel that as a Night Elf advocate, it is necessarily my responsibility to propose solutions for the Horde.
That being said, these complaints do have a point to them. I regard it as irresponsible to propose a solution for the Night Elves that does not care to be considerate towards Horde issues, and at least try to address some of the concerns that your side has brought up. The purpose of the thread was to get to some common ground - and there was a lot of that before I even floated a suggestion.
So, just to summarize - I am told that I cannot just talk about Night Elf issues, I must also consider the Horde. Got it? With me so far?
Now you are stridently and angrily telling me the opposite - BECAUSE I am a Night Elf fan, I CAN’T talk about the Horde.
So the lie reveals itself. It was a no-win scenario from the beginning. There was no invitation for me to also take Horde concerns into account as I’ve tried to do - you were going to reflexively call that attempt insincere anyway. What I took to be a legitimate complaint was in reality another distraction and another code word for “shut up and never bring up your concerns, only our concerns matter”. Furthermore - you are doing EXACTLY what you wrongly accused me of doing - you are trying to fix issues explicitly in a way that leaves the other side to rot. The only difference here is that you’re more open about it, and unlike when you’re criticizing me for it (and this I know you specifically have done - I’ve seen you advance the argument that Horde players are paying $15 a month too in response to nearly every class of proposal I’ve encountered for the Alliance to hit the Horde back in some way, no matter how limited), you seem to think that this stance is suddenly fine.
If you want to know why I’m so snippy in my return here, and so dismissive of points that I would have otherwise tried to unpack despite it having been done for the hundredth time, it’s because your side does such an awful job of hiding its hypocrisy and blatant selfishness. It has become very clear to me that what’s happening here is nothing more than “red teaming”. I can’t trust your claims to be sincere because it could just be another bad faith rhetorical ploy like the one I just described - or the dozens of others that I have to respond to.
Go ahead and call it a “victim complex”, but I’ll tell you what it really is - it’s not accepting your nonsense anymore. You have been unfair, one-sided, and ignorant to the fact that you are not the only customer base.
On the subject of bad claims.
You’ve got a bad implied premise here - one that I’ve corrected you on already. Fix it.
You’ve stated this several times, and it isn’t true. It’s a phenomenon called the Mimesis effect, and I shared the study on it before. Does every PVPer go out and download an RP mod? No, but they still “RP” to one extent or another. This is also why very few competitive games are like pong or why League of Legends feels the need to write backstories and make cinematics about the fighters that you can play as. You have a habit for ignoring the sticky factors that cause people to play games as well or that keep them playing even when gameplay slides in quality, this is one of them - and it’s a problem because it causes you to miss factors like team identification that are pivotal to understanding what’s going on.
Not that I would expect you to agree with this. It’s been my experience that there isn’t a study that you won’t find some way to throw out. I recall you even rejecting social media as a class of evidence that could be considered for marketing research, which marketers would certainly disagree with you on given the manifest purpose of those platforms.
That’s kinda my point. Those few ideas work just fine on their own, but when tied and restricted to the necessary “Supporting PvP on a Story Level” goal, they threatened to either A) Be Undermined; or B) Worse, threaten to actually work in opposition to rebuilding/redeeming the Horde.
Tink, shmyak, grunt, tink.
M … There are arts dedicated to WoT and BfL. It was unexpectedly not to find the art for the BfDA. Okay. And only the WoT art is a bit tragic. BfL is heroism. Not that I was looking for a long time.
Thank’s, Sarm.
I wonder if there’s a way for Zelling to be brought back to Undeath, that way the Cult of Forgotten Shadows can be a “mixed religion” of:
He must be in the Maw and all.
If you haven’t figured it out by now, no one really cares.
We can very easily see where your priorities lie and it isn’t in rebuilding the Horde.
You laid out your proposal (in a different thread) and received plenty of feedback regarding how little it does for addressing what Horde players feel are issues with the faction. You didn’t even bother at the time identifying what Horde issues your proposal attempted to address.
If you don’t understand what those concerns are why pretend you can address them?
You get feedback on your proposal and you double down on it and say “it just works”. Anyone who thinks otherwise is wrong because obviously you have the greatest insight into what the Horde’s issues are, right? You even tried to frame the Horde losing to the Alliance more as the Horde not losing. But we’re supposed to believe you’re actually sincere in wanting to rebuild the Horde?
You bring up stuff like that stupid memesis thing to downplay how Horde players feel about their content and push your narrative that the Night Elves have it so much worse (with your decade of humiliation).
At no point in any of your ramblings did it seem like you were interested in anything if it didn’t involve Night Elves in some way, shape or form. I and others have laid out numerous issues that we believe need addressing regarding the Horde. Many of these have literally zero to do with the Night elves or Alliance. Instead of addressing the issues you again default to your proposal which, by the way, has little support from either side of the faction divide. You like to “unpack” things and yet with several lists of Horde issues identified you prefer to obfuscate, misdirect and downplay.
Which begs the question, exactly how invested are you in rebuilding the Horde?
From where I stand, it doesn’t seem like much at all.
My guess, only to the point where she can ensure the Horde and its playerbase is involved in her need for NE resolution and RPPvP. Because in both the cases of the “NE’s getting their shots in” AND “Supporting PvP on a story level”, you cannot functionally do either without the Horde’s participation.
Which begs the question, exactly how invested are you in rebuilding the Horde?
Anyone who plays both factions can be invested in rebuilding the Horde. I’ve noticed you intentionally skirted redeem for some reason.
There aren’t many people invested in REEEEEbuilding the Horde though, which is what this thread is.
Never stated otherwise.
You’re right. Not many want to “REEEEEbuild” the Horde. A lot of the REEEEEing has been Alliance posters legitimately upset that Horde players would dare think about ways of fixing the Horde without considering the Alliance (oh, the horror).
There are plenty who are interested in rebuilding the Horde however.
Hennyways, someone in the wowpedia discord brought up this interview (note: Afrasiabi left)
Afrasiabi: We consider the faction divide foundational to Warcraft since [its real-time strategy] times. As we kind of look at the equity we have in certain fiction, this is the one that’s at the top of the list. We’ve danced around it for so many expansions now that we feel like it’s time to pay it off.
Now, there’s some of the story that you haven’t seen yet, of course. Actually there’s quite a lot of the story you haven’t seen yet. Over the next months, more of that will come to light.
As we’re talking about things like enemies, we’ve fought everything. We’ve fought everything under the sun and then some. We’ve gone to other planets, other universes, you name it.
I’ve got this group of gods and this group of gods that will never get over their differences between the humans and the Forsaken, the orcs and humans. Never. The Night Elves and the trolls. The Night Elves and the Tauren. I mean, there’s so many different racial divides that have melted away into the background, but they’re still there. For those races, those things are still there.
How much land have the Night Elves taken from the Tauren, from the trolls? These are the things we want to settle, and that’s what I think this expansion is about. Now, of course we’ll see other things come into the foreground as we adventure through this, because certainly there are forces in this universe that want the outcome of this. So we’ll see. That’s the TL;DR version.
So at the start of BFA, Afrasiabi said we were supposed to see:
Instead we got:
And we datamined but never got:
This entire thread was stolen, and opens/was created with from the Horde REEEEing. It also didn’t make it past OP without calling for the Alliance to be racist. If they’re going to be included in the OP, there’s no reason the Alliance aren’t to be considered in other solutions.