You didn’t address jack, you just don’t agree with the logic, which is your prerogative and your problem, but if you notice the Horde players are agreeing with me, so here we are.
It doesn’t have to be one or the other. Maybe some Orcs are interested and maybe some aren’t.
Just because my family has been living here in the US since the Colonial days (dad’s side) and the mid-1800s (mom’s side) doesn’t mean I can’t become interested in my family history. In fact, I had a grand old time doing genealogy a while back.
Much of my family is German/Polish/Czech with some English thrown in. Just because I’m American and never lived over there doesn’t mean I didn’t get interested in my heritage.
You can easily have some Orcs start talking to the Mag’har or some of the oldest surviving Orcs about their past and the clans their family belonged to. That doesn’t mean all Orcs would suddenly split into clans.
This sounds more like a book/short story than in-game stuff. Though, if there is ever an Orc heritage armor quest line, they could explore such a thing. I think it would be interesting if they talked about the old clans and such.
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Yup, but that’s what I’m saying, you have the Mag’har identifying with clans, and MU do not.
Making the MU Orcs into the Mag’har Orcs, where everyone gets a clan, as Kyalin pretends, is a mistake.
It’s been just you and I talking for the past hour. I don’t see a brigade of people here rushing to your defense. I kind of hope they would of course, because maybe they could provide me with something that actually answers the questions I’m bringing up.
As for you, you’ve done your usual thing where instead of explaining yourself or responding to criticism, you descend into "lmao"s and "lol"s while trying to shift focus away from my core points.
Regarding your edits:
- RE: Racial diversity - disputed at the end of post 4596
- RE: Thrall’s idea on clans - disputed several times, most recently in post 4606
- RE: Why? See post 4600
I wouldn’t think that all orcs would flip like a switch, no, but your post does trend in the direction that I’m thinking, yes. If I look at the US, for instance, yes, we are one united country, but there are ethnic enclaves that exist in different places and that often think and vote differently - which has been that way since before we even were a country.
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I reject your argument. MU Orc diasporic identity is important.
It’s in the book, two clans does not undo the other dozens.
“Because I think they would” is not a valid argument based on standing lore. And Garrosh applying Warsong culture to all the MU Orcs is not what you pretend with clan reclamation, in fact it’s quite the opposite, an extension of Thrall’s abolition of the clans through the standardizing of one clan as the default.
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Let’s unpack this one here. Do you believe that an Orc who identifies as a proud Blackrock cannot also identify as a whole with a unified orcish people? Are they necessarily at odds? If so, please explain why.
This does not respond to post 4606’s claim. You seem to be assuming a pan-Orcish fealty to Thrall’s ideology that I dispute the continued acceptance of.
It is not enough to just throw existing lore at me to explain why something should be something in the future. That’s an is/ought fallacy. The past does not dictate the future, the boosters of how things were in the past must explain why that method is optimal now and going forward.
Then why are so many Night elf fans perfectly OK with assuming Blizzard is actively trying to screw them over?
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You’re going to have to explain this one. I’m not following where you’re going.
Nor do I see what it has to do with a rather targeted discussion on whether it’s a good idea to bring back orcish clans.
You should really take your own advise and leave elsewhere since you bring nothing new for thousand’s post now.
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It also should be noticed that there really isn’t any “reclamation of the past” that can be had for the MU. Even beyond the fact that there is no world to reclaim, most MU Orcish clans were truly just left as utter shells after all these events. Its not to say that there aren’t those that wont want to reconnect to their ancestry on a familial level, but even compared to the AU Mag’har … so many Orcish clans are just functionally gone in the MU. With their heads cutoff and cultured uprooted. Which is why the unification under Thralls vision was so accepted; because to survive they had few other options.
Even if there is a reconnection for individuals with their Clan history, I think the only two Clan leader-lines left are Thrall and Jorin (Frostwolf and Bleeding Hollow). And based on Jorin’s comments, the Bleeding Hollow are gone as a Clan, with an Ogre Settlement standing where they once existed. He’s essentially the last remaining leader of a Dead people. Truly, there is so much barren wreckage on the MU side of things its nuts.
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I want to dig further into this sentiment here. Because I see the erasure of clan identity as simply perpetuating that wreckage as opposed to trying to reclaim something that was lost. Where do you stand on clans, exactly? Do you feel it shouldn’t happen because for reasons that I haven’t seen you really explain here, it can’t happen? Or is there some other clear reason why the clans as a totem of identification should not return?
I look at it this way. The clans were abolished by Thrall, with only the Warsong and Frostwolf surviving due to one reason or another. After the internment camps and being seperated from their own culture for so long, many of the newer generation have no idea what clan they even belong to. There isn’t a sorting hat that just tells them “Oh, well you must be a Bleeding Hollow Orc!”, if there is no one to tell them, they have no way of reclaiming it.
As Droite said, the Bleeding Hollow has pretty much been erased. The Shattered Hand joined the Illidari before being destroyed in BC, their legacy a Horde Spy Network that never is mentioned. The Laughing Skull, Thunderlord, and other clans are likely lost to time. The Dragonmaw stayed entirely separate in their own slice of the world, but they too have been decimated after they sided with Garrosh. The Blackrock were split by the Internment camps, with a number of them opposing the Horde under Rend Blackhand and Nefarian. We saw that they still had not joined even in Cata and remained a hostile force. Even on Outland, the clans have been abolished as the survivors came together to salvage what little they had left.
In short, there is no real way to reclaim the clans in their current state. Many have been lost to time, others were antagonists of the week that we beat over the head. It’s either Frostwolf, Warsong (How many of those are even left?), or bust.
In addition, it strips away something that the AU Orcs have going for them as the main point of separation from the MU Orcs. It is something they’ve kept alive and should be allowed to continue doing so. Once you give one back to the other, you begin treading on where the Mag’har could be relevant to the story going forward when you could just use MU Clan leaders.
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Given the MU Orcish peoples situation, I don’t think they have the luxury to worry about things like that. And if individuals want to reclaim a connection to their Clan history that’s fine, but as a race they are so depleted and unstable even now that reclaiming some sort of functional Clan structure would be disastrous. Because, as you said, some Clans lucked out and still exist. The Frostwolves and Warsong in terms of population still have some life left in them (even if the Warsong leadership is gutted). But there are dozens of clans out there, and most of them are more akin to what Jorin is dealing with. Where these people may have been of a Orcish clan, but for all functional purposes they are clanless. There is nothing but history to reclaim. Which would be a nightmarish situation to be in if Clan systems were allowed to have authority again.
So … on an individual by individual basis, I see nothing wrong with reconnecting with Clan histories. On a systematic basis, I think it would only cause division and social inequality.
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I can see this argument. This makes sense to me.
Is the concern here having to do with the idea of clans becoming quasi-independent groups? Or just affiliations of people within the larger whole?
Both. Thrall got rid of the clans to prevent one or two clans essentially dominating the others through mere luck of their survival through all the Orcish people went through. And conversely, hypothetically, protect those without clans left from being exploited by those that do. Beyond just the functional element of … the MU Orcish people can’t afford divisions back when the New Horde was formed; and still can’t now TBH.
Clans of any size being allowed any level of social power would be disastrous for the MU Orcish peoples current situation. That Unity is the only thing preserving whats left of their people right now.
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Then why doesn’t that same argument apply to the Mag’har? Couldn’t the same problem emerge? If we’re arguing that for the good of the whole, Orcs should crush clan differences and their attendant cultural expressions - then shouldn’t that extend to interdimensionary immigrants?
In their current state? Yes, potentially. In their pre-Lightbound invasion state? No. Because the AU Mag’har were more or less allowed to come together as a Race WHILE most of their clans were still intact and whole. Their current system of government (or what it was prior to becoming refugees) was built in reflection of there being many powerful clans who still remained intact. Unlike the MU Orcs who were forced to come together after existence took a sledgehammer to dozens of clans.
Who knows whats going to happen with the AU Mag’har right now? But the circumstances and context of their unification as a people was not the same as the unification of their MU counterparts.
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I want to add onto this.
The Mag’har haven’t been put into a situation where they straight up lost their culture. If they had been Lightforged and then were ‘freed’ of it then it could perhaps be similar. As it stands they are simply various clans who banded together to battle against the Draenei.
The clans are currently well represented in the Mag’har groups, clearly holding onto their traditions. We see Shadowmoon Orcs creating portals or using shadow magic, Warsong riders patrolling on their wolves, Blackrock smiths crafting weapons, and Laughing Skull talking about how cool it is to collect bones.
Finally, the Mag’har and the MU Orcs are entirely separate groups governed by separate people in Thrall and Geya’rah, so his ideals and jurisdiction do not apply to them. If Geya’rah says clans are cool, then they cool.
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I know I’m a little late on this but for the MU orcs, these individual clans may be their history but it also represents the period of time that led them to being corrupted in the first place. That they call themselves mag’har seems like somewhat of a misnomer because the only reason why they weren’t magically corrupted was because they were socially corrupted instead by yet another mag’har from their own timeline. For them to go back to that seems like a regression of their story, which was already damaged enough in Cata/MoP by having them go on the warpath again.
And on a meta level, the difference between clans and clanless might be the only thing that separates MU orcs from the AU ones. I think allied races were a dumb enough concept on their own without actively watering them down by merging what few differences exist.
I don’t follow this argument. The clans preexisted the Legion, and did so for years. If anyone came in and forced them all into a cohesive whole, it WAS the Legion. It doesn’t follow for me then to say “we’re not going to go back to the way things were before the Legion interfered with our society because that led to being corrupted by the Legion”. The two don’t connect.
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