You seem positively obsessed with the idea that players should suffer for decisions made by the writers often against the players’ desires. Have you considered taking a break from the game?
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This is false if you’re talking about me. But it does line up with Droite and Gantrithor’s positions.
And you’re assuming your scenario actually solves Horde issues.
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Reminder Brennadam was removed during Beta and replaced with Quillboar but the Alliance/Kul Tiras questing team decided to include it back
Meanwhile the Vulpera being burned alive by Alliance was removed and the Horde/Zandalar questing team decided to NOT add it back.
Weird, that. Almost indicates something!
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So this is a very long Forum thread, could you guys lay out a crash course on what you see as Horde issues you want to see addressed?
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OK, then lets keep this simple and to the point How does your PvP scenario help rebuild or redeem the Horde? Because at this point, just being on the receiving end of retaliation from the victims of our crimes wont aid in that. No matter how “innocent” those those NEs are slaughtering happen to be. Because at best, you might get some sympathy points from some people … but it will still be seen as deserved.
How does your scenario deal with the Horrific damage the Faction Identity has taken from this second round of villain batting? How does it improve the situations of the several core racial fantasies that are left in miserable states post last expac? How does it improve our awful character roster, especially our main council of "who’s left’ at best? How does your scenario you are so convinced by actually HELP the Horde?
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It’s in the OP:
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Check out post #4.
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Given that the one being discussed is a smaller part of a larger proposal, I will focus on the warsong bit specifically.
A. It redefines the Orcs’ more militaristic clans into a defensive role, allowing Horde PVPers in this particular area to fight for preservation rather than destruction.
B. It further explores Orcish clans - the scenario establishes that they come back and manifest in different ways across Durotar and the Barrens.
C. It creates a sympathetic character from whole cloth that Horde players would get to follow and identify with.
D. It has room for inclusion for other races (especially as we expand the scenario out, but we’ll stick to the Warsong bit in particular).
E. It avoids the large scale destruction that faction wars have typically accompanied, in favor of smaller, personal stories.
F. It allows the Horde to experience a technical loss in Ashenvale in a manner that does not feel like a loss - allowing instead for progression against an enemy, culminating in competitive content.
G. It does not extend into Ashenvale proper past the part that exists in the gulch itself, thus preventing the idea that the Horde is “beating up on the Night Elves” and retaining the defensive character of the Horde’s presence.
H. It freezes the conflict going forward in competitive content, allowing the “cycle” to be expressed in a lore-connected fashion in actual gameplay, thus ending the need for back and forth reprisals as delivered in lore.
https://tenor.com/view/cat-funny-cat-pc-cat-reading-workaholics-gif-14796708.gif
Thats a lot. Hmm.
I for sure can see a lot of these issues. I did find it sort of odd there was no ancestor afterlife in shadowlands given the Tauren Heritage quest seemed to be so strongly hinting that way.
Ok so, as an example. Let’s say we go Light next expansion. Who would you all want as a horde-leaning neutral ‘guide’ character for the expansion? Would Alonsus Faol work perhaps?
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Thrall abolished the clans. It’s not “warsong is the military end of the orcs in the Horde” and hasn’t been since Vanilla.
Which clans and how? You’ve already grossly misrepresented one of the clans.
LOL!
It still has Horde killing night elves.
LOL!!!
“Horde, you’ll lose. But you won’t feel like losers.”
Except the Horde is still killing night elves…
Or, instead of Horde and Alliance going at it at all Blizzard could just, you know, not villain-bat the Horde.
…
Ok, so I’ll give you
/ 5
For trying. It’s more of a contribution than what others have proposed but still lacking a lot of fixes for key Horde complaints/issues.
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That is an excellent question!
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Yet Warsong Gulch has been with us SINCE vanilla, and the Warsong clan has been expressed since then as well. I also don’t have to accept the demise of the clans as being permanent.
“I don’t know enough about this proposal to know which clans are being talked about.”
“But I do know they’re being misrepresented.”
2x - not a rebuttal.
Would you prefer that we burn down Orgrimmar in loving cinematics for you? Because that’s what you did to us.
Explicitly not in the proposal.
Gantrithor: “I don’t want to give up Ashenvale.” (See your prior reply on “losing but not feeling like losers”)
Also Gantrithor: “I suddenly care about killing any Night Elf ever. (Or at least enough to throw it up as a flimsy objection)”
So … it doesn’t really is what I’m gathering. And it ignores completely the Horde players concerns about your scenario. Sigh…
A) A is contradicted by the very nature of putting the Orcish people in another military engagement. Being on the defensive doesn’t change that image, least of all when they have a history of “preserving themselves” for horrific effect. As all Orcish atrocities start with self-preservation in lore.
B) I doubt the Clans are coming back in any meaningful way. The Orcish people are so broken it will be a miracle if they reform into a singular whole. Let alone clans. I also fail to see how this would invest sufficient time to meaningfully do this, since the majority of remaining Orc clans have no leaders. And Thrall abolished them.
C) So … right. Manufacturing a character to justify the Horde’s emotional investment in a PvP scenario. We’ve established that is what he is and is for. We got that. He’s essentially a more developed Black Bride.
D) Not sure why this is relevant or how it supports your scenario helping to Rebuild or Redeem the Horde? If you don’t have specific reasons for these races to be involved, then you are not considering how this scenario could benefit them as races. Just involving them in PvP.
E) Irrelevant to rebuilding/redeeming Horde. PvP on story level.
F) Irrelevant to rebuilding/redeeming Horde. NEs getting resolution.
G) Irrelevant to rebuilding/redeeming Horde. Being on the defensive wont automatically dissuade that theme and tone. It will be taken as “beating up our victims”.
H) Irrelevant to rebuilding/redeeming Horde. It just resets the Cold War to try to support PvP on a story level.
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The guy introduced in Legion who retcon’s Forsaken weakness to Light and is Alliance-leaning?
But no, the Horde-side Light character by necessity would have to be Liadrin and Aponi Brightmane, since they’re our most prominent Light users even though they’re B-List characters.
Horde-side Void/Shadow users do not exist, as Natalie Seline was made a Human instead of a Forsaken and Troll shadow magic hasn’t been seen in-game in eons and no character exists to that end.
Welcome to Life as Horde.
Yup. Because we’re second rate, superfluous to the game lol
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*Blizzard
Again, you tried.
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Hard disagree. Heck, by this logic, Orcs fighting the scourge is somehow wrong. Them fighting Quillboar on this argument is somehow wrong. I find that to be ludicrously extreme.
This is changing the fact of a scenario to make it easier to shoot down.
Why exactly is this concept radioactive?
To address neglect and to give them moments to shine.
Horde players PVP too.
This is your bias talking, and it sounds like it’s more you saying that you oppose any solution that would solve the Night Elves problems at all (which I think is the root cause of every one of these objections).
Again, Horde players PVP too.
Well I tried to think of someone faction neutral but also of a horde race that was also tied strongly to the light and he is all I could come up with. And I really thought hard too.
As much as I understand it be cathartic to watch her give catty comments about the alliance, I think she might be a bit too staunchly Horde for a neutral post. TBH I just don’t want to be reminded I am a dirty tree living savage every 5 seconds. Aponi Brightmane, though, I can for sure get behind.
It be great to see the Sunwalkers get some expanded lore from the tiny notecard they have atm.
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Well since we both know Turalyon and Alleria will be the neutral characters in a Light/Void expansion
And we both know Malfurion will be the neutral character in a Life expansion
The only Horde parallels to any of the above are B-List characters: Liadrin, Aponi Brightmane, and Hamuul Runetotem
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Despite the dumb way Arathi warfront handled in writing (and I do mean incredibly dumb), Liadrin appearances through the story have always been to be the horde rep for neutral stuff
In BC and WoD she’s basically the horde liaison for Draenei (note the gap, she basically had no presence until the Draenei went back in focus in an expac), in Legion she’s one of the horde reps in Suramar even though Halduron and Rommath are literally chilling in the region, and then back to horde rep for Draenei stuff in Argus.
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