Clip and round those ears and you got your Elune 
Convert. Accept your round-eared goddess. Accept human potential.
This is the way.
I didn’t ask a question.
I’ve demonstrated that there are things that can be done to rebuild the Horde independent of the Alliance, it’s characters or players.
You don’t seem to like the fact that players aren’t frothing at the mouth to offer up ways improve the situation for Night Elves in a thread dedicated to fixing issues with the Horde.
This is your assumption. Because apparently you took this 
to mean that the Horde playerbase should be the arbiters of Ashenvale’s disposition. Which wouldn’t be a problem if I didn’t immediately follow it with this
You, yourself, have stated numerous times that presentation matters. If Blizzard handed the Night elves Ashenvale in a tweet you’d still be upset.
I will continue to call you out for:
- not actually contributing to the focus of this thread
- only caring about solutions that involve placating Night Elves
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More that you are here, as you were in the last thread, to repeatedly shoot down solutions that attempt to solve two problems at once, something that’s required given the nature of the problems themselves.
Correct.
Both of these premises are false as my posting in this thread could tell you.
Now will you answer my question?
As a note, I think Gan brings up that example because that is exactly how Saurfang became racial leader of the MU Orcs. In a tweet.
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Which helps to demonstrate why offscreen resolutions or communications fail to satisfy people in general.
That point’s well taken, but it doesn’t explain the stonewalling. If you present me with a problem then I’ll say “great, let’s fix it”. Not “well I have problems too, so too bad”.
Here’s the operative word.
Again, your (and other’s) attempts at rebuilding the Horde don’t actually amount to much of anything for the Horde.
Again, incorrect. I have demonstrated that there are problems with the Horde that do not involve, nor require input from, the Alliance.
Kind of like this one?
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It’s telling to me that you’re rejecting any compound solutions as explicitly as you are, and unfortunately it’s reinforcing of this idea that only you and your issues matter.
Which I think has been demonstrated enough by this point.
What a coincidence!
It’s like I don’t take propositions or the players who propose them seriously when they don’t do much of anything to address rebuilding the Horde in a thread about rebuilding the Horde.
Now, if you can point out anywhere in this thread where someone made a proposal that actually addressed issues with Horde that I flat out rejected or “stone-walled” go ahead and quote it.
Because we’re nearly 4500 posts into this thread and a lot of mine have been to remind posters like yourself that night elves are not Horde and are, therefore, not the focus of the discussion in this thread.
Here’s a few other things that do nothing to rebuild the Horde and don’t need to be discussed in a thread about rebuilding the Horde:
- The Alliance claiming Lordaeron
- Night Elves getting a new home
- Tyrande’s status as the Night Warrior and her quest for revenge
- The Night elves “needing to feel powerful”
- the Alliance needing an “unequivocal win” against the Horde
- Horde paying reparations to the Alliance
this list is not exhaustive
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The issue with Gant is that he’s clearly not convinced you’re trying to solve the same problem. Or more specifically, you’re “solving” of the Horde problem in in part merely a vehicle to solve your primary foci of giving a resolution to the NEs; and supporting PvP on a story level. And since you recognize that the Horde’s participation is needed for both of those objectives, you’re attempts to “fix the Horde” is tailored towards them.
I personally am of a similar mind as Gant here. I don’t think your proposed solution can really lead to the redeeming or rebuilding of the Horde. Even assuming Blizz breaks their habit of being non-committal with Alliance aggression (and somehow doesn’t give into their compulsive need to whitewash anything the Blue Faction does) … what you are suggesting with this PvP scenario is very unlikely to portray the Horde in a sympathetic light. Least of all to the players on either side, who look at events from a meta-level. And more likely would result in merely giving off the tone of “beating up our victims” and “we’re deserving of it”, even in just a case of self-defense. Which would fundamentally undermine the point of this thread, and Gant’s efforts.
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Which is tantamount to a loyalty test, which I reject. I am not going to pretend that I’m looking at things from a Horde perspective, nor should I need to when describing matters impacting the Horde. If you’re restricting this conversation only to Horde fans, that’s not only petulant, but it’s leaving out half of the conversation.
Based on your predictions alone, which is an elastic, unreasonable standard with which to evaluate any suggestion. You’ve created a scenario where you can reflexively shoot down any proposal on the basis that Blizzard would deviate from it rather than setting clear and concrete goals and expectations.
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The problem is that whether you like to admit it or not, the situation itself is an unreasonable one. The Horde currently does not have a single remaining leg to stand on when it comes to the Faction Conflict thanks’ to Blizz’s nonsense; and the Alliance has been built into morality itself within this setting. Which has resulted in a problematic situation where even in a case of self-defense, especially if pitted up against our biggest victims, the Horde still probably wont have a leg to stand on. And that is the BEST CASE scenario where Blizz finally stops their constant whitewashing of the Blue Faction. Blizz has just gone way too far in their little settup of SLs here.
Which is why Gant and Ariel have essentially gone the “just separate the factions completely” route with their solutions. And I’ve gone, its not even a battle its so one sided (not even balanced enough to support PvP) with my Lightbound concept. So that the Alliance can get their shots on the Horde out of the way fast and brutally, so we can move on to just cleaning up the cost of that ease they waltzed over the Red Faction.
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I agree that the situation is unreasonable, but again, I am pointing out that you’ve created this rhetorical hammock for yourself where you have established no clear conditions, requirements, or things to aim for that could even get us started on working out what a compromise would look like, and have instead reserved the right to move the goalposts on the basis of changing facts about other people’s proposals as you see fit.
You talk about whitewashing and moral purity. I try to address both. You first said that it wasn’t there, you then said that Blizzard wouldn’t allow it, and then you called it fake. We can agree that the situation isn’t reasonable, but that stance isn’t either.
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I just don’t think your idea will work, and think that even if you are being considerate of the Horde and its playerbase … you’re PvP scenario with these NE radicals is restricted in that consideration by your own agendas. Your idea has three goals: 1) Allow the NEs to get some hits in and get some resolution to BfA; 2) Support PvP on a story level; 3) Rebuild/Redeem the Horde. But honestly, I only see 2 of those 3 goals being achieved; with the last one likely being undermined by the other two instead. In part, because Goal 3 really isn’t its own goal, but rather more an attempt to get the Horde playerbase invested in a PvP story on their end.
There really isn’t much “rebuilding/redeeming” the Faction going on. It doesn’t deal with the Faction Identity being shambles really. It doesn’t really deal with the damage to the Racial Fantasies of several core races; or how to repair them BEYOND simply “them trying to survive the Alliance”. It also doesn’t do anything the absurdly depleted Horde character roster, beyond making another Arathi Black Bride. Its just “how to get the faction and its players involved in a PvP Scenario”. And restoke the Faction Conflict. And use these NE victims and rebels as a catalyst to restoke PvP scenarios all over the place.
EDIT: And as a note. The other reason I’m not fond of that retired soldier/farmer angle is because after Brennadam I don’t trust Blizzard to not play “hide the warcrime” from the Horde players anymore. You wouldn’t have even known that massacre happened if you JUST played the Horde side of BfA (just like they erased Teld from the Horde side during the expac). So I’m not sure I trust them enough not to villain bat that soldier farmer character we’re supposed to be fighting for behind our backs. With something like … he’s retiring off the funds he received from enslaved NEs he got from the WoT; and he’s got a few left in his secret basement that ONLY the Alliance player will know about and get access to during their settup campaign.
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And, this is the problem I’m talking about. You’re changing facts about the scenario so that you can knock it down. Hence, no resolution is possible.
Other than that, you’ve accused #3 of being an afterthought, which isn’t true. It’s the item that I spent the most time on by quite a margin.
And you don’t think the reason it took you that long to work out isn’t because you were trying to get it to work within your already pre-established PvP concept that serviced Goal 1 and Goal 2? Because it does really read like you settup a scenario to support that PvP on a story level AND let the NEs get their hits in first … then tried to figure out how to make it palatable to the Horde afterwards.
EDIT: And I think Brennadam really DOES sell my point about not trusting Blizz to portray the Horde in a sympathetic light. Or even not outright villain bat us behind our backs, like they did all over BfA.
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Could have fooled me. And a lot of other peeps for that matter.
How again does your proposal rebuild the Horde given the issues identified by the Horde players that have the most visibility on these issues?
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I think this is, again, elastic argumentation constructed to shoot down any scenario that would solve more than just your issue. You’re demanding proof for an improvable assertion, because you can sit there and just question my motives all day, and because I literally can’t let you inside my brain, I can’t prove you wrong.
Clever rhetorical trap, but I’m calling you on it. This is not a reasonable stance. This is just stonewalling.
…that was just weird and confusing. It was so disconnected with everything else going on in the zone and felt like a needless attempt to provoke moral outrage about the Horde. They should of stuck with it being a Quilboar attack.
Brennadam is why the level design teams need to communicate, or you end up with random junk like that.
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