I think it’s because you oppose the PvP scenario.
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Because this isn’t a thread about fixing Night Elves?
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But I said this about it?
That’s basically a “Hey, go ahead if it makes you feel better, but I’m gonna pass.”
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It’s usually discounted on the basis that it portrays the Horde in a negative light, and here I must reintroduce the context of people reacting to the War of the Thorns by defending its every aspect to explain why its reasonable as they complain that they didn’t beat us down hard enough, who are often the same people who introduce the justifiable complaint about villain batting.
You got a win, that you didn’t want the win is not related to that particular point.
Whether I’m describing you or not depends on the argumentation that you advance. This is very much a “you know who you are” kind of assertion. If you don’t find yourself advancing this mentality, then we’re good. If you (which at this point is an abstract “you”, not you in particular) do, then I’d say my comments were over the target.
Which is fine. As I said, PVP content should be optional, this included.
That the win was unwanted, undesired and caused a ton of players nominally on both sides to quit the game is kind of relevant. A lot of horde players aren’t interested in faction war storylines.
Expecting people to be positive about suggesting more faction war is completely missing the point. To an absurd degree.
The faction pride crowd is a tiny bubble compared to people who probably picked a horde race for their main based on specific race preferences. My posting main on the board could easily have been my equally leveled nelf hunter if it didn’t default to this.
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Again, I think that said assertions are built on the expectation of the PVE-centered faction war that requires a good versus evil construction, and that is built more around the arcs of characters than the need to represent both sides evenly.
That’s the hurdle that I don’t see people getting over.
There are other reasons besides “it made the Horde look like bad guys” to dislike the War of Thorns, because as much as you don’t like to hear it, the War of Thorns does not portray the Horde as effortlessly stomping over the Night Elves. Did it portray the Night Elves as probably more stupid than they should have been? Yes, but the reason for that was the Horde, as depicted, was too weak to carry out the plot the writers wanted to use, so they had to engage in shenanigans.
Bear in mind the Horde advance is also stopped twice, in game, and advances the second time on a hilariously flimsy deus ex machina. It’s made pretty clear the Horde would have been unable to defeat a single Alliance race had they been at full power, and still struggled to accomplish that even with plot convenience.
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The whole scenario was flimsy deus ex machina, one that ignores matters like logistics, distances, geography and every other important element that you can think of in order to make it work. That’s why I object to people asserting it as a default or trying to defend it. If we acknowledge that it’s a bad scenario, then let’s just do that and ask how we can fix things, instead of trying to justify stonewalling said proposals on the basis of asserting its conditions as a kind of default.
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Consider maybe that the best way to fix this is not to give in to this supposedly inevitable hurdle that mostly came about because a bunch of people on the writing team are unable to consider the gravity of their writing.
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It’s not just gravity. The story that they’re writing is at odds with the objectives of an MMO, especially in the PVP space.
But the point I am contesting is that to describe the War of Thorns as a “devastating win” for the Horde is basically stopping discussion in its tracks right there, because it appears to be trying to tilt the playing field in your favor, by implying that this “devastating” victory deserves additional restitution. Instead, I think it’s more accurate to describe BfA as containing victories that neither side wanted which particularly stung the losing side.
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Let’s agree on this statement, I think that’s a fair way to describe things. That’s still a situation where the losing side requires an opportunity to hit back, whether we’re talking about the Night Elves, the Zandalari, or the Forsaken - because it took them out or humiliated them in the worst way possible.
Just trying to pretend that everything is okay and can be moved on from after this is not acceptable.
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Such an ironic take from Dayon. Calling the op’s text drivel and this.
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I think it is the fairest way to describe things, yes.
What I find the sticking points to be are these:
- Lordaeron doesn’t feel like a satisfying victory for probably anyone and exists in this weird ‘draw’ limbo. The trouble is, the Forsaken are particular losers of this engagement, and considering this engagement a draw does them a disservice in basically trying to sweep this one under the rug because we don’t know how to “count” it.
- The Battle of Dazar’alor is the Horde’s “stinging” loss in my estimation. It is a pretty sweeping Alliance victory that feels lame all the same while leaving a bitter taste in Horde mouths. This is, of course, not a Night Elf victory but an Alliance victory, so addressing the bitterness of the WoT loss is probably not helped here.
So I think the key problem here is the asymmetricality of the way things go down:
The Horde wins an unsatisfying victory at the WoT, and the Night Elves feel bitter over the loss.
The Alliance wins an unsatisfying victory at BfD, and the Horde feels bitter over the loss.
Who the heck knows what to call Lordaeron, and the Forsaken take the brunt of this defeat.
Toss in the double defeats at the warfronts, and it really looks like the “Humans First” Alliance are the only winners of BfA, with a mixed-to-negative experience for everybody else.
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Yeah, I don’t see any issue with what you just said. The trouble is, individual races do matter within the faction war, which contributes to this asymmetricality problem.
I have zero investment in Lordaeron, and I don’t care about Dazar’alor. That Jaina will show up and break the world or whatever the devs have her doing this week is of little consequence to me.
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Clearly, the solution is to rise up and break the shackles of Human Potential.
To be serious, though, this does feel like the Story Forum’s Gordian Knot. It feels difficult to move in any direction without exacerbating the (legitimate) grievances held by any particular side or subgroup.
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Bro even each Cosmology Development is just repackaged Human Potential; both the entirety of the Pantheon of Order and five of six Pantheon of Death are ultimately recolored Humans.
Elune is going to be a tall blue human and An’she is going to be a tall red human.
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But isn’t the faulty logic of this that you’re essentially discounting their arguments because YOU feel that it was a devastating win, and they don’t. And the reasons they’ve provided for not receiving Teld as this great victory is a combination of how awful an experience it was; how valueless Teld was to the Horde players; how lacking in motive the Horde was to even attack Teld; and ALL of the nitty details of the WoT prepatch AND A Good War that really sold the idea that the Horde is shockingly weak. It was less-so a devastating victory, and more-so a pathetic, motiveless barely victory with a devastating result.
Like “you got a win, just because you didn’t want the win is not related to that particular point”. Wouldn’t therefore the argument be, that the Alliance won every single battle in the 4th war after the WoT thus apply to that same rule? It doesn’t matter if Lord, Arathi, BoD, and Darkshore weren’t wins you wanted (or how you wanted to win them) … they are STILL wins. And if thats all that matters, then that is all that should matter right?
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Like I said, I think there are paths out of this, but they have to be limited, optional, racial in nature, and giving something to both sides while at the same time not giving either side everything that it wants.
See my previous comments to Jellex. I include the Zandalari and the Forsaken in the list of groups that need to hit back against their faction opponents. My issue in particular is that these wins mean something for human players, but not for me.
As for Darkshore, if you believe that taking back one zone makes up for losing three and having the third devastated in quite possibly the most oversold moment in WoW’s history, then I have a bridge to sell you.
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And here in lies the core unreconcilable point. We Horde were forced to take something you value and are emotionally invested in; that was in no way valuable or invested in by us. We didn’t want your stuff, we were forced to take it. And all that destruction and pain was valuable to no-one. Which is part of why you consider Teld such a devastating victory (and the Horde players HAVE to accept that), while the Horde players see it as a weak, pathetic, empty, self-destructive, barely victory … that simply had a devastating result. So its not a Loss/Win situation, Teld is already a Loss/Loss situation.
And no, the Zandalari and Forsaken don’t “need to hit back”. Because them being hit was part of the Alliance hitting back for Teld. No matter how you frame it, neither of these groups will ever have sufficient justifications to “hit back”; and on a meta level both their playerbases have succumbed to the apathy of knowing they never will be allowed to. Like, truly consider even in this Sylvanas situation for the Forsaken. YES, Sylvanas victimized the NEs ruthlessly; using the Horde to do it. But through her “Horde is Nothing” moment, she finally revealed herself to the Forsaken for what she was. Their deeply manipulative decades long abuser … who they will not be allowed any resolution with. Just like the Forsaken and BEs weren’t allowed a resolution with Arthas. Just like the MU Orcs weren’t allowed one with KJ. The Horde just expects the lack of resolution, in part, because we are always framed as deserving of it and thus don’t deserve resolution to our story beats.
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