How does protecting the interests of the Forsaken relate to protecting humans dropping people under a bus? Or are the Forsaken the night elves of the Horde, and the orcs (tauren?) - humans?
The Forsaken are in a similar position, yes. They’re the core of the Eastern Horde, which itself is a regional power in the same way that the Night Elves are.
In order for the humans to take Lordaeron, there must be balance between the factions, that puts the Night Elves on the chopping block, which some human fans are a-okay with because they don’t care about the things we care about, and vice versa.
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Ok Northfold outpost is now a dock or whatever it is called it took some time but its done what else.
Ainhin only cares about Lordaeron for the humans. If Night elves get thrown under the bus he doesn’t care. He is human biased.
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I was writing a whole bunch of melodramatic nonsense but had a rare moment of thinking better and wiped it, so I’m just cutting it down to this little bit of melodramatic nonsense instead.
I think this bit is related to the pushback you see from Droite, Pellex, and I. You’re trying to re-stoke a faction pride fire where the ashes have already blown away. I don’t think it’s out of some stubbornness to let night elf fans enjoy themselves, but a lack of hope in seeing the faction story get better. At least, it’s that way for me.
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It’s really funny seeing people saying I am “an Alliance fanatic”
Fold the Horde into the Alliance and get rid of the faction system entirely. The Horde existing as a separate sovereign entity after it turned on itself in BfA is honestly laughable.
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I would honestly be very interesting hearing some perspectives from Forsaken players on where they would like to see the race go (if you can call zombies a race really).
It feels like the opportunity to directly study the root of the magic that makes them in Maldraxxus would let them develop a method of creating Forsaken without the need of the Val’kyr
From an outsider perspective, It feels like the biggest aspect of their culture which needs to change is the raising the unwilling into undeath; they need to make it optional, and for those who come to them. Death terrifies a lot of people, and there will always be those who take the Zelling route.
I don’t really see them letting Humanity retake Lordaeron in it’s entirety, given how massive it is, not to mention they just let them re-establish Strom as effectively a vassal state of the kingdom of Stormwind. Now I can imagine Gilneas, which is totally unused, being reoccupied… and I can imagine further conflict in what is now the plaguelands.
In a way that redefines the Horde as being something closer to their Warcraft 3 portrayal, yes. But the other thing I feel that I need to point out is that you don’t get to just fold your arms and tell us to pound sand again, because you feel bad about how Blizzard handed you a devastating win over us.
The faction rivalry is not going anywhere, and it requires rebalancing. I see these objections - objections that frequently exist to say that no solution is possible and therefore I should just shut up and accept it - as intentional blocks to that rebalancing. Want to prove me wrong? Then give me something different that at least attempts to meet both of our needs.
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Hmm. My Nightmare Night Elves storyline … I have defiled Stormwind with plants, taken Orgrimmar, enslaved Mulgore … Disorder. Dwarves for “equality of the bad” had to be offended or what?
@Auela, no. This will be a bad association. Night elves will quickly become a “shadow world” due to attempts on the lives of members of the Horde, Eastern Kingdoms.
Hmm … On the other hand, “Night Elves are the masters of the underworld”. Sounds funny.
Well like I said, you’d probably be better off not even bothering with trying to come up with concessions to make the bleakest horde players feel better, because I think that’s the aspect that tends to get the most pushback. Obviously you’re not as demoralized or you wouldn’t keep trying to come up with fixes, so you may as well disregard those of us who are.
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Don’t misunderstand the depths of my demoralization. But just also understand that at times, there’s another side to it.
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I know I’m going to get pushback from a certain Dwarf Hunter, but the obvious (and easiest) answer is just to commit to a roughly 1/3rds-2/3rds distribution of both continents. Using natural geographic lines. Kali’s easy. Ally’s hold the top 3rd (Ashenvale and everything North). Horde hold (more less) Stonetalon South. Close that Goblin made ravine in between those two zones, and reinforce the Southfury as the Azshara/Ashenvale border. Its clear, with lots of natural geographic defense. And plenty of room to rebuild and grow.
When it comes to EK, the biggest issue functionally comes from the Aerie Peak in the Hinterlands. But, if Magni is to be believed (and Old God corruption is on the way out), then just let the Wildhammer reclaim and rebuild the Wetlands, Highlands, and Grim Batol. While the Horde bring in the FTs, with the Hinterlands and the prior Scarlet Enclave (to unify their Northern and Southern cities). Then Frostwolves get to secure Alterac, and the Forsaken trade Gilneas, Hillsbrad and Southern SP for them, the BEs, and FTs to pick up the Plaguelands. Again, creating a roughly 1/3rd-2/3rds split on EK. With natural geographic borders reinforcing it.
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… why not?
Because this game isn’t just about you.
As another thing. I only really play one character, so I play my favorite Horde race … Goblins. But I generally love every Horde race (even the ARs), and I probably wouldn’t play Horde so much if I didn’t. So, for Forsaken … if we’re stuck with Calia I would really like Blizz to embrace Roux’s preference. Basing the race around the dual-identity concept explored in BtS a bit, and build up TWO leaders that can represent both identities in positive ways. With Calia representing the Citizens of Lordaeron side, and Voss (as her equal) representing the Forsaken side. And with both, you support all those on the spectrum between those two extreme identities.
Then, once Zovaal’s influence is truly gone, let the Forsaken turn the Scourge into a resource. Finding and nursing back those Undead who can still be brought back; and harvesting those too far gone for parts. Add in a little magic and help from the source of the Undead (Maldraxxus and the Primus), and you could really have something here. A way for the Forsaken to be really built into a people who can fulfill Cairne’s belief that they would one day come to represent the Horde in their own way. And give them a non invasive, noble way to sustain and grow their population. As well as securing and supporting both sides of their racial identity.
I do however think that IF we are stuck with Calia, she needs a reason to create and maintain a little distance between her and the Alliance. Like Baine need to also be allowed to do. Positive relationships with Anduin and Jaina are fine, but there has to be a bit of common sense politics there too.
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I’m gonna have to call you out a little bit on this. A week ago, in post 4069, you told me that Horde fans don’t all agree on things. But now you’re making sweeping generalizations that put all of us in the same boat. So which is it? Are we a monolith or not?
Because I did not gain a single thing from your “misfortune.”
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I cannot pause to acknowledge every possible subdivision when I speak in generalities. However, I will ask the question as to - if you choose to stonewall proposals for fixing the Night Elves - why you would choose to do that.
If the answer is “because the Horde would lose something, and no matter how small it is, I don’t want that”, then we are well within the contours of the matter that I’m laying out.
You’re not likely to find many of them, unfortunately. As Kyalin does rightly point out, the Forsaken were largely eviscerated by BfA and were cast so relentlessly as the villains that few fans of theirs seem to remain.
It just often feels impossible to raise Forsaken issues because the way the story was told almost inevitably places them in direct opposition to the Night Elves, and this dredges up faction wrangling without fail. It’s telling that in a “What to do with the Forsaken” thread we had recently, the first 100 posts or so were people who don’t like the Forsaken discussing what to do with them.
This framing is pretty much why I don’t think the two opposing groups here will ever see eye to eye. Horde players have described to you multiple times why they don’t see their victory as “devastating”, from a variety of viewpoints. If the requirement is that you feel the Horde victory was devastating, I addressed that issue… I don’t know how many posts back with Smallioz.
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Well, that’s one heck of a pivot. When did I “stonewall proposals for fixing Night Elves”? (Oh, and daily reminder that this is supposed to be thread on fixing the Horde, btw.)
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