I honestly think a modern refreshed Hyjal is a good trade for Teldrassil, its roughly the same land mass size, and if they still want to make Gilneas uninhabitable because… reasons… they could finally build a proper Gilnean town down in the near the mountain base.
I do not know how the forsaken feel about Scholomanse and its isle. Is it enough, with I suppose Andorhal and the lands around?
I mean undercity was just blighted. If Southshore has been reclaimed, so can Undercity
Hasn’t Winterspring’s main town been a goblin cartel since vanilla? I’d still feel somewhat weird about a neutral group getting shanked for it (but not too broken up about it tbh)
Also that world map really makes me wish they’d make real zones for Northeron and the Amani Lowlands (they could easily carve out a lot of the Ghostlands world map that’s not accessible within the zone)
I sort of think it be really emblematic of turning over a new leaf if they were to just start living in a refreshed Lordaeron city itself proper.
Well, there is a concern there too. But, we seem to be at least putting what is left of Ner’zhul out of his misery in the upcoming rage. And it is portrayed as misery. Which ain’t great, but its something.
That being said, I would take “tragic heroes capable of making mistakes, even horrific ones” over the current status quo. Which is just by-default good, pure, flawless, infallible heroes who’s infinite benevolence is required to always help save the Horde from itself. And considering the Lightbound dogma, where they are “saving the evil races/cultures from themselves” I would wager many Alliance at this point would be susceptible to falling prey to such a message given all the Horde has done to them over the years. And it could be a neat twist on that awful writing trope that Blizz has exploited to save the Red Faction from their writing nonsense.
I think it’s pretty sad if that hypothetical situation is the best we can hope for.
I’d say with how Blizz writes the Alliance these days, even tricking them into acting on their decades of grievances is a hell of a stretch. Especially if the expectation is that Blizz doesn’t half-commit, get scared after pulling the trigger, and then whitewash what they do have the Alliance actually do. This is the my “stepping stone” method of getting the Alliance into an aggressor role, while leaving some outs for them. Thus allowing integration of flaws, mistakes, and some dents in that shiny armor. While also giving an environment for heroics to be had in response to those mistakes. On both the Horde and Alliance sides.
You mean like how they built up Night Elf revenge against the Horde via Tyrande, complete with a whole moral admonishment about revenge, and dumped it in the garbage when someone pointed out that this would require seeing more Orcs lose in combat to Night Elves?
No one gives a crap about “seeing more Orcs lose in combat against the NEs”. No one liked your PvP idea because you never managed giving a sufficient motive for Horde PLAYERS to get invested in it. That wouldn’t feel like us just beating up our victims again; the people we’ve been actively shamed by Blizz for being forced to attack by Blizz for nearing 5 years now. Go ahead and steamroll over some Orcs in your need to reassert your NE power fantasy Kyalin. Its just most of us story-Horde players wont care, and will just roll over if you do. We’d rather do that than wait for Blizz inevitable shaming of us again, and whitewashing of the Alliance again.
We talked about this - your opposition was largely based on the impressions that you imported, versus what was actually there. You admitted that you didn’t read the thing when you were first reacting to it - and most objectors fail to recount basic facts about it accurately.
You are also not most Horde players - nor are you the developers, who very much present themselves as Warcraft 2 Orc fans.
WC2 fans without any understanding or recognition of the consequences of the Old Horde on the very people who were a part of that Horde (beyond using the WC3 Horde to dodge them). Nor recognize how truly problematic it is to try to repeatedly return to that type of Horde after years of building on top of WC3’s “Humanizing the Races of the Horde” platform (that relied pretty heavily on basing Horde races off of Hollywood Brand RW NON-European Cultures). While they also dial back on the WC3 Alliance nuance, to rebuild the clearly VERY Euro-Fantasy inspired Alliance races into Perfect, Flawless Beings. Truly, they are morons!
And you’re right, that I’m not most Horde players. Which is why at least within the Story Forums, I take solice in remembering that nearly every Horde poster on here was also deeply opposed to your PvP suggestion. For the same reasons I stated. It would feel like beating up our victims, we’ve been both forced and shamed for beating up. And after a decade of Blizz being noncommittal with Alliance aggression, we don’t trust them to not whitewash the crap out of the Alliance side of that conflict.
The devs trying to shove the game back towards WC2 is something people have been complaining about more or less non-stop since Mists. “Most” players are also not that interested in the WC2 lore (most of which has been retconned anyway outside of very broad lines) especially the people with the biggest nostalgia for it.
For consideration: if WC2 lore mattered that much, belfs would be one of the races with druid
Hold up, is this about that old Warsong Gulch thread that was supposed to give motive via having a sentinel raiding orcs in the barrens or something? Because if so, that’s not going to change my impression that fighting back against the night elves isn’t just an attempt at beating on the victim anyway, because you know going in they wouldn’t have been doing that if you didn’t hurt them in the first place.
Yes it is. That is the PvP scenario we are referring to.
For what it’s worth, I read it, and I agree with Droité:
I again have to compare sentiments like this against the actual reactions that people have for anything that resembles an Alliance atrocity, as the two have historically been very different.
Because it would have resolved Night Elf issues, yes. I don’t expect agreement from the party that I’m asking for compromise with on this matter given how my suggestion was mischaracterized and butchered. I’ve concluded that it’s like asking an armed robber to give you your stuff back.
Well I’m not them. 
So you may as well barrel through with your hypothetical example and damn what anyone else thinks because some of them are going to get pumped up over faction stuff no matter what you do, so ultimately the story doesn’t really matter to begin with.
Considering that most of them barreled through with their own pre-formed impressions rather than the facts of the scenario? I suppose I will.
Suggestions on this forum when it comes to AvH stuff have revealed themselves to me to be a prisoner’s dilemma. We would do better by compromising and working with each other, but we won’t because it’s in our interests to seek maximalism and the emotional validation that comes with denying the enemy anything.
For Night Elf fans, we get that in two ways. Horde fans benefit from our misfortune, because they gain territory and wins over us. Human fans benefit from our increasing dependence on them, because it feeds into their own power fantasies of being the hero that saves everyone and dictates terms. It’s also in their best interest to throw us under the bus so that they can get what they want (and we saw this earlier).
This is why we will always be outnumbered in these discussions. It doesn’t mean that I intend to roll over, however, or stop pointing out just how unfair all of this is - and how unfair people are being when they so stridently defend this status quo.
But this is something new. I have never seen such a statement before. I wonder if the Horde will protect humans?
May be, @Crystalette?
That depends on how willing they are to stand up for Forsaken interests. On that point, I’ve observed, oddly, that I’m a stronger defender of Forsaken interests than most of the Horde posters I’ve seen.
And yes, Crystelette and Ainhin demonstrate precisely what I’m talking about.