Incorrect, I love how Roux handled the Trolls.
Noble Savage isn’t positive. You know it isn’t positive.
I literally responded to you earlier about returning the Horde’s racism both internal (e.g. if Amani were to join, Blood Elf vs Amani tensions) and external (Goblin hatred of Gnomes).
In this thread.
This is no “outside of civilization”.
Civilization is whatever society humans come up with.
Civilization is not urban cities or suburban houses.
Do you see what you are doing.
There are no human peoples “outside of civilization”.
Your response with things the Horde can be racist against to yes, what I hadn’t seen is this nonwhite, colonizer angle you want to hitch to the Alliance. Fantasy tensions like blood elf vs trolls are fine. Same with humans vs orc. But your posts tend to veer into the angle that the humans are white colonizers threatening the shores of fantasy Africa, which makes me roll my eyes.
Like for example, I wanted to nuke Thunder Bluff to show evil Alliance, and one of the issues you took up with it was a native american genocide angle.
Honestly I’m not sure. Ascetic, perhaps?
I think you’re confusing culture with civilization.
Civilization is any complex society characterized by urban development, social stratification, a form of government, and symbolic systems of communication.
And even the smallest ethnic group can create a culture.
You realize there were multiple “Heart of Darkness” references in the Alliance questlines in Zandalar? I’m not the one who invented that parallel
Regardless, you boldly going to claim Zan is right in saying
No, it is not lmao
For the love of God we even use the term civilization for “indus river valley civilization”
Urban???
I used the most basic definition on what it means. If you don’t believe me then look it up yourself. You told me to google stuff myself, why won’t you follow your own advise then?
Think for two seconds, if we use the term “civilization” for the earliest of human settlements literally thousands of years ago, and lets say sure, we use the term “urban” for them, what does urban mean in this context?
And using that meaning of urban are there any peoples that do not fit this criteria??
that’s exactly why there are some of us who believe that Sylvanas should not only come back as the Forsaken leader but also to continue to be Warchief. Just putting that out there. That right there is the reasons loyalists feel validated.
Tyrande is her foil for the Alliance. Genn is up there too.
Can we still be mad that Genn attacked the Horde in Stormhiem without provocation and was never reprimanded for it? Or we simply going to forgive Genn because he said his beef was ONLY with the Forsaken and not the Horde?
One of the things the Horde needs to address and fight racial bias against the Forsaken if they do truly want Forsaken inclusion and part of that is not sweeping hostilities against the Forsaken by both factions under the rug.
According to Webster, A civilization is a relatively high level of cultural and technological development. By this definition, every member of the major factions would count as a civilization. A tribe of murlocs on a beach likely would not. So make with that what you will.
Zandalar is but one example that you used to paint any Alliance aggression as troublesome colonizer-ing. Because the way, as you brought up, the Alliance and Horde’s major races are coded anything the Alliance does to the Horde invites bad implications of colonization. The same way everything stupid Blizzard has done invites the bad implication of the “savage” races of the world.
This seems to be a lost concept in this thread though.
Don’t be coy, say what you think.
Are there human peoples “outside of civilization”, to you. Yes or no.
They have writing, language, and “urbanization” (settlements along every coast of every continent) so alas, Murlocs are also a civilization.
Correct, but that isn’t “bad” in as much it can serve as a functional and useful way to parallel history.
Same way Undead Humans and Orcs (speaking SAE) nuking a tree full of Japanese-metaphor race is equally messy for exactly the same reason lmao
To be clear, there are no human people without:
There are literally ZERO human beings IRL “outside of civilization”
The fact this needs to be stated is insane.
I’m just gonna pop in to say I find it amazing that our ancestors built structures that are still standing thousand of years later, and yet, with all our current tech, we can’t build something without it falling apart in a few short years.
Just my two cents
like Baalsamael said we can’t ignore that the Horde are coded to represent real world racial minorities and in relation the Alliance are white colonists, despite the fact that the orcs are the one’s who tried to steal land.
Any input the Alliance has about the Horde does come off as suppressive and is laced with real world racism. We all know Tauren are coded as Native American, Trolls are Afro-Caribbean, the goblins have anti-semitic undertones, orcs are African. We can’t pretend that this coding just doesn’t exist and in any discussions about the Horde we do have to tackle ingrained racism as part of that narrative.
This universe wasn’t created in a vacuum.
I am not anthropologist or any form of scientist. But term of civilization was usually used for societies that achieved great forms of advancement.
In art, in goverment, in how they create their settlements, in their ability to record history, inventions, in complex religious system and so on and so on. There are plenty of factors that contribute to civilization.
Gotta say that trolls in wow are amusing case, because they both created civilization and are considered to be savages.
Retvrn to Tradition (Marble, Stone, ever-expanding city-state styles settlements)
Reject the Devil (steel, glass, dry wall, strange building shapes that make getting to the bathroom or a meeting inefficient, suburbia)
What also funny is Blizzard accidentally does intra-ethnic conflict correctly without intending to, probably.
In real life, there are a lot of “Diaspora Wars” between Caribbean and African communities (Zandalari vs “lesser” Trolls, the way the other Trolls recognize Zandalar started it all and how the Zandalari look down on everyone else), or between Indigenous people that still live within reservations vs Indigenous people that are mixed and live in cities (Mulgore Tauren and Highmountain Tauren, the way the latter hesitated joining the Horde and hadn’t spoken to the former)
Moving goal posts, and also incorrect.
You stated
There are no people in real life that do not have this.
Please learn history. There’s a real world historical reason for that trope invoked in the game.
I’m honestly not sure what you are referring to here.
I’d refer to them more of a small culture, a tribe. But I personally wouldn’t but them on “civilization level” like Stormwind.
But then again for all I know all the murloc camps around Azeroth could have a centralized government for all I know.
See but that’s where it is “bad”. Because it can’t be used in a way to parallel history without it being very, very very bad.
You use the Japanese coded night elves getting their tree firebombed. I think we’ll all agree that was a very, very, very stupid move. And that’s assuming they weren’t sitting in their offices like “Let’s kill a lot of them like we did the Japanese!”, cause that makes it a million times worse.
Which is why I take issues with the idea that the solution to problems would be to do that more, but this time make the colonizers do it I’m certain the Horde players don’t like being the colonizers any more than the night elf stans being fantasy Hibakusha.
People really thought this way about that thread? They must have been utter fools.
I entered that thread a while ago, among the first 50 or so posts, to make a single post about the Horde already having cause enough to at least exist and defend itself. I knew even such a minimalist stance was against the spirit of that thread.
And I will share a similar sentiment here.
In BfA, Blizzard had peppered in a few dashes of in game, canon instances of Horde Characters expressing anger about the Purge of Dalaran and the Burning of Taurajo. It has also been in their written works. In BtS, Sylvanas shuts the Tauren dissenters down in their own home by bringing up Taurajo. In A Good War, Lorash has anger built up from the exile of the Highborn.
I don’t know how much redeeming we need, and in whose eyes. If you want to play a self redeeming Horde Player in some sad Faction in the perpetual state of lamentation… I don’t. And I don’t feel bad for much of what occured. I would gladly go further, and look forward to the next time the Alliance will attack during a world ending threat, so we can retaliate justly. As we did at Teldrassil.
The person you’re defending stated there are humans outside of civilization.
Do you agree with that, yes or no.
They do, they have a King and various Chiefs. So they’re a civilization.
There is no way to salvage the Horde’s moral grounding without bringing at least part of the Alliance (one leader will suffice) to this level.
The alliance doesn’t need to be racist per se, they just to have their questionable tactics/actions actually stick and have consequences for a change, and without blizzard burying them under some absurd justification.