Such as Bwonsamdi now being a mortal troll? Well, a former one at least lol
On another note, I welcome a ‘wipe’ of WoW like in Steel Ball Run
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I have quite few comments and observations. So brace yourself xD
How is that a racist trope? To me it always meant that while someone is considered savage he is NOT evil. Because there are plenty of factors dignifying the character/ race.
Kinda like Native Americans in Pocahontas, they were savages but their life style was portrayed in such a beautiful way that you wished to be in part of their community. Their connection to nature, to family to traditions, looked noble to me.
So I’d like to know what makes it a racist trope.
And this ironically makes Alliance not interesting to play, you made so many valid points on why on paper Alliance is much better than Horde, but it also makes them awfully dull because they lack flaws, (or their flaws are not portrayed or treated as flaws) because they don’t have any real tension inside. And all those who have valid grievances are silenced or put away from the main spotlight.
This isn’t cool either.
It’s kinda like with Harry Potter movies, the main trio was meant to compliment each other with their virtues and flaws, but what movies did was making out of Hermione flawless Mary Sue and they stripped everything good about Ron and made out of him butt of the joke / funny sidekick.
So I believe this is what happened to Horde and Alliance. They made Alliance way too perfect, and they stripped the Horde from all the dignified stuff they were meant to have (besides Zandalari, and they were villan batted in 4.2 even if they could have valid reasons to fight considering that trolls were always targeted to be attacked and repressed).
So in the long run it is disservice to both of factions I believe.
Not necessary, Alleria was shown to go completely bonkers in the vision of Stromwind, they’re still a ticking bomb, but game doesn’t really recognise that.
I believe that each faction should have its own representative. This would allow character growth in each faction. And I don’t expect Alliance to work with Horde characters, but the same courtesy should be given to Horde.
And that is a shame, this is the one time they should thrive, and it’s even more frustrating than Legion.
I’d rather if that was done in a reasonable and organic way. I hate what they did to Horde but hitting Alliance with the exact same bad writing is not really a solution. each sub-faction or character needs to provide reasons why they feel that way and make it meaningful. Not that they woke up one day and decided to be racist.
I’d also like for Alliance to face another problem -the conflicting politics of each sub-faction- to show internal tension. While I hate that they gave Arathi victory to Alliance instead of Horde, they could use it to built tension. Why Stromgard was prioritized over Gilneas?
Retconning Arathi Victory, and making Rokhan win against Trollbane would be also amazing option to bring forest trolls on board. Not to mention it would be first meaningful victory for trolls since Aquir Wars.
I like this idea, we could have a good world pvp Zone in that area.
Terrible idea IMO. How would Keal’Thas even return? He is dead and he shouldn’t be able to leave the ShadowLands. Vol’Jin is a different case because he will actually be reborn. But even then I believe that Vol’Jin is wasted anyway and we should prioritize on developing new characters. Jut give him a nice closure and move on.
I don’t like this idea too. Ideally, Rastakhan should never die, but being Loa of Death is not fitting to him. And while he could be the Loa of Zanda Paladins, I just loved Holy T-Rex concept more and they butchered it too.
There is still Hope that Vol’Jin will get some meaningful plot, but for now everything around him is horribly gated. And I wouldn’t be surprised if his return wouldn’t contribute to victory in SL at all. They’re preparing Anduin for that 
Agreed.
An’she is a Tauren thingy. Blood Elves worship Holy Light. And while I want for An’she to have slightly bigger prominence I don’t like the idea to retcon faith of belves that was established for years to do that.
Shadowmoon clan should be natural response to void elves. Maybe we should get a background that since Yrel went on her crusade they realized they need to give void powers a second go but use it for defense.
Mostly agreed on the rest.
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Stop with the Northrend man. You know damned well the majority of Northrend is inhospitable, and those areas that are cannot support the whole Horde. Borean showed us that the Plague of Undeath runs deep there. In many cases, its been seeded into the very soil of the land. This is especially prominent in Zul Drak, which is a major part of what doomed the Drakkari to extinction.
The Horde moving voluntarily to Northrend would doom all their peoples to a meager existence, where survival itself is not a guarantee. And that’s without the Scourge factor. Moving them there by force in some way however … well, lets avoid any “Reservations” parallels added to this mess why don’t we?
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And the other thread should be titled, “How can we indulge Night Elven RP PvP fantasies so that a single playable race is superior to an entire faction.”
But I don’t see you calling that out.
I wonder why? (But not really)
Pretending to be the “reasonable” ones isn’t working for you and others.
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those reasons were good reasons, he was a racist.
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Noble Savage is racist because it implies that Nonwhite Cultures are only good when proximal to White Culture while stripping the Nonwhite Culture of any agency.
Baine being the “best of the Horde”, when all he does is cozy up to the Alliance, while being the in-game Native American metaphor and retaining that cultural difference, and being best friends with Anduin who looks like Warcraft John Smith, is the game telling us the Horde Cultures are only good if close to Alliance Cultures.
It is the game telling us only the powerless Horde races who readily forgive massacres (eg Camp Taurjo) are the “good ones”.
That is Noble Savage.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noble_savage
YIKES
Huge L. Reconsider your entire life and your perceptions to American indigenous peoples.
Yes.
That’s the problem. We only see Alleria as a threat (equal to Thrall by the way) in the Vision, and we only see an Alliance leader (Jaina) worry about Turalyon and Alleria in a book.
Not in-game.
Yes, but there does need to be at least one Alliance leader that represents a complete and explicit “Hell No” on the part of the Horde.
Sylvanas historically filled that role for the Alliance for the past 20 years given Forsaken “Death To The Living”
Not like they’ll ever actually make the zone reflect the Alliance winning, its Schrodinger’s Canon in a sense, so yeah that’s subject to change
Same way all undead characters were dead and in the shadowlands lol
necromancy
“Loa of Death” or “Loa involved with dead/ancestors” is not only a Baron Samedi (Bwonsamdi) theme.
Look up Oggun.
yup
No, they worship the Sunwell, which is the Well of Eternity + Naaru Heart.
If An’she is the Sun, and the Well of Eternity was tied to Elune, and Naaru were created long ago possibly by Elune, just add An’she to that (Elune and An’she together made the Naaru) and have An’she be the one who gave Dath’remar the dream to make Felo’melorn, etc.
Not only them. Legion retcon’d the Cult of the Forgotten Shadow to having “died” as a religion instead of being the Forsaken religion.
It sucked.
That’s his point, it’s just Cringe Posting intentionally
Increasingly concerned how these people view the history of 19th and 20th century Abolitionist movements and insurrections and US Civil War history.
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Morghel doesn’t recognize any of that.
He openly admitted in the other thread that he thinks none of the Alliance victories mean anything because it doesn’t sate his personal bloodlust against the Horde and that the Alliance should not lose any moral highground at all period.
Interesting idea, now apply that to Every Single Alliance Poster In The Other Thread. Quote your reply there over here when you do so, then I’ll believe you.
Oh wait, this you?
So you are, in fact, the hypocrite.
Yes but Racism Is Still Bad and the story would just need to drive home the point “This character is racist and bad”
Otherwise, as we’ve seen in the other thread and here, we’ll get Alliance players trying to justify Garithos and Daelin as Not Racist.
“Ah you see, Daelin hated all orcs because of what they did, racism is just when you hate an entire race for no particular reason”
Ignoring that all racist ideologies IRL are based on histories and historical narratives and nobody is racist “for no particular reason”.
Curiouser and curiouser!
And that’s why the Alliance needs to be given one (1) explicit unquestionable “this person is bad and immoral” character and some grey.
Be heavy handed, lay it on thick.
“We should re-enslave the Horde races that can work and re-educate them, and finish off the other Horde races like the undead and blood elves. Tauren are too big to be controlled, so just keep them in Mulgore and Highmountain but build a wall sealing them in that we control, a land reservation.”
etc
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Baal, the source you posted is in direct conflict of what you’ve said.
If anything it shows that my interpretation is right - it shows culture that doesn’t appear to be civilized but they still embody lots of positive traits.
I fail to see where that "Nonwhite Cultures are only good when proximal to White Culture " There is literally nothing in there.
Excuse me? Have you’ve read the rest of my post? I said that I adored their depiction because it showed them in very positive way and made me appreciate it. Same goes with “Dances with Wolves”.
So why are you acting so hostile here?
I am perfectly aware that it wouldn’t be shown in game at all. And I am personally fine, as a huge troll fan I am used to mediocre underwhelming concent. But I’d likely appreciate change of the narrative in trolls favor where their point of view, their needs and agency is at least taken into consideration.
But they’d need his body to do that. And I am honestly against bringing dead people back to life, period. I was thinking about bringing Vol’Jin back but his character was done so badly it just… wouldn’t really fix the damage that was done.
I am aware of that I’m just saying that I don’t think it would fit Rastakhan. If anything I’d rather for him to be the new patron of Prelates, trolls that are standing up to defend their home. Since he died protecting it.
Liardrin started as a priestess and she was worshipping holy Light, the Sunwell restoration made all belves convert back to it. And Belves were always worshipping Light.
Sunwell is important object, but it’s not their religion.
Huh?
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I did actually.
Perhaps not in those words, but it was clear from which direction she was coming from. Just like this one is. Both have simply put, lost the plot.
I have never said that the Alliance shouldn’t lose a bit of moral highground, that is to say become a bit greyer. I am vehemently against your idea of how it should happen however, and for very good reason, since your suggestion is for the Alliance to suddently become extremely racist, simply so that you can feel good about fighting them.
I am not opposed to let’s say, the Alliance finally having had enough, and because of previous transgressions against them decides to dismantle the Horde by any means necessary. I think that is a fair and realistic motivation in light of both recent events and prior events involving the Horde and the Alliance.
In the meantime show the Horde as truly sympathetic. That they regret Teldrassil, the war, and that they didn’t oppose Sylvanas far sooner. Show the humanity in them, that if given the chance, and knowing what they know now, that they never would have marched to Teldrassil, and instead would have killed Sylvanas for what she would do.
From what I understand, the trope focuses on making someone or something appear noble -because- they’re not civilized or educated. Kinda like “innocence in idiocy” on a societal or racial level.
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Please just control F + “racism” lmao as you did not read the whole thing evidently
Cultures are not divided between “civilized” and “uncivilized”. That is a racist, colonial idea.
The Noble Savage idea was created to demonstrate originally a “pure savage that is good because he is stupid” that eventually developed within literary context to a trope of “token nonwhite secondary character that is stripped of agency” when reduced to a singular character.
As well as used during the 19th and 20th century for the purposes of separating the world as you’re doing, of Civilized vs Uncivilized, the West and the Rest, the Educated and the Savage.
It is inherently, fundamentally, unquestionably racist.
Good for you that you liked it but it’s not positive. Stripping indigenous people of agency, allowing them only the virtue of goodness and if they choose otherwise they’re evil is a horribly racist depiction of Amerindigenous peoples that flies in the face of history that we intimately are aware of (colonial genocide, forced relocation, Trail of Tears, Wounded Knee massacre, etc)
We have his body. We killed him in Quel’danas.
Too late, already happening with Voljin, Vampire Elves are cool
You’d have to give “the Light”/“the power of the sun” to Rastakhan somehow.
That was Liadrin, not everyone. Early Blood Knights were Magisters.
Not canon, not stated, not correct.
Some are, not everyone, we have zero context for Blood Elf religious practices except for the handful of blood elves we see with the Argents, the pilgrimage we saw in wrath where all Quel’dorei go to the Sunwell, and the ritual of lanterns with the heritage questline.
They could just as easily reveal a sun cult.
Go read the An’she thread a few threads below this one.
Correct.
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I thought that it was about finding nobility in different lifestyle. Lifestyle that is closer to nature and that life is still full of dignity.
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You are horribly incorrect and should read up on the history of racist tropes.
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I used to use the term myself before I looked it up on Wikipedia and realized I was thinking of the term savage as an adjective, and the noun version meant something way different. Originally I figured it was “someone good at heart but willing to get his hands dirty to achieve that” but…yeah, I felt really awkward after reading up on it a bit.
It’s basically romanticizing and idealizing another culture seen as lesser, not just different.
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I mean, for all this talk of Disney’s Pocahontas, she literally points it out, “You think I’m an ignorant savage […] You think the only people who are people, Are the people who look and think like you”
She is stating John Smith thinks she is good because she is ignorant according to his standards of knowledge, and uncivilized (not people, not a person) because he thinks she is a savage.
She is criticizing John Smith for calling her a noble savage.
That’s literally the point of the song lol
“I’m not a noble savage, I know things you don’t know, private land ownership is kinda cringe and unsustainable because you’re ignorant of ecosystems, you’re kinda racist and colonialist dude”
Sure it cringe-romanticizes the whole dynamic (reminder IRL Pocahontas was a child bride) but here we are, layers
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What? What are you talking about? Are you implying that I am racist? Maybe you should stop projecting.
Civilization is not a “colonialist idea” Civilization is something that was created by plenty of cultures all around the globe. Something that we can all measure and admire and compare. It’s not racist to say that for example, Chinese created an amazing civilization than let’s say Beduins who live in Africa and who are nomadic people and because nomads are often changing their place where they live they didn’t create as much as Chinese. It’s all about conditions a certain group of people lives in that allows them to grow and improve.
I’ve read the text that you linked. And literally the basic definition proved you wrong. Sure, some guys used this trope as satire, but some didn’t. It all boils down to interpretation and what do you want to show with it. But I strongly believe it’s not really a negative trope at all. If you’re cynical enough you can turn literally everything to look in a negative light.
And I am annoyed of stupid sidekicks trope too. But I believe you should tone down the outrage over wording. It gives the impression that you’re riding on a high horse which is not really helping any discussion, I didn’t come in here to fight anyone or insult anyone. And I don’t wish to be insulted for interpreting something different and be told to reconsider my life or read implications that I am racist. That is beyond rude. Especially when you know nothing about me to make that judgment.
I thought that both Pocahontas and “Dances with Wolves” did a very good job at showing their point of view, their agency and showing why it was a tragedy to threat their lifestyle.
I am aware what happened to them (although I am not a historian) But I believe it all depends on how something is portrayed. It can have a negative meaning but it can have a positive meaning depending on the context it is providing.
I thought it dissolved already. He was all fel tainted and seemed to slowly dissolve.
We don’t know to which extend Vol’Jin will return. And I am not expecting much, but he is returning in different circumstances. And to me Vampires were always lame. Even before twilight.
His personality was already radiating through all of Zuldazar. 
But all these priests started somewhere , right? And from what I know they learned from humans on how to worship Holy Light during the troll Wars.
Sun or magical well cult?
And I don’t recall any notes of them literally worshipping the Sun, they made a change in their lifestyle to no longer be nocturnal to cut their ties with nelves.
Ok, I will comment on that there.
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Where did I say this?
Actually stating there is a hierarchy of civilization is racist and colonialist, hope that clears this up.
The Chinese were not and are not “more civilized” that the Imazighen.
That is literally creating a racist hierarchy in your mind.
Civilizations don’t have hierarchies. Cultures do not have hierarchies.
One culture is not “objectively better” than another.
You cannot divide the world between Civilized and Not Civilized/Less Civilized/Savage.
That is racist.
You are incorrect.
No.
No, Rommath as a Magister is evidently in charge of the Sunwell. The nature of Blood Elf priests is unclear.
We also don’t have any notes on them not worshipping the Sun, nor what happened to their religiosity after the restoration of the Sunwell via Naaru heart.
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I cannot believe yall defending “Noble Savage” tropes at 9 AM on Ash Wednesday during Black History Month, c’mon man.
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Zanthora, Baal is one of those woke PoCs (I have no idea your race/culture, so Person of Color is about as close as Imma get) that dislike any and all depictions of any race done by someone not of said race and will get laughably offended at the sheer thought of anything positive being attributed to nonwhites by the colonizers.
It’s why he takes great issue with the Alliance’s offenses to the Horde for being racist imperial colonizers, but doesn’t seem to mention the Horde’s equal racism against the Alliance. At least not from what I’ve seen.
And before it get’s brought up, why yes. I am a black American rolling his eyes at this argument. I hear these kinds of arguments all the time in my daily life. Some are valid, some are…exhausting. This is an example of the exhausting.
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Then what term would you call people that live a dignified life outside of civilization. Closer to nature? I’m happy to learn about alternative in this case. Because to me it always meant that. And today I learned that I am totally wrong AND racist. What a day.