How Can We Redeem/Rebuild The Horde (Actual Horde Edition)

[Sarm-malganis (Sarm)]

But that sounds like it would have made Nathanos unkillable to you, because there’s no way to bump off a suicidal NPC without “rewarding” them.

[Shernish-nazjatar]

Well… Will you rejoice in the death of a gibling? Acid ball with legs, explodes. Yeah, if he didn’t die right next to you. But Nathanos already exploded (Dark Shores). Just didn’t die. Um… That’s a lame analogy. And it distorts the situation.

[Zahirwrite-farstriders]

@Gantrithor-myzrael

“That’s different”

It’s different and taking the argument out of context doesn’t change the difference between Night Elf and Horde themed situations.

@Gantrithor-myzrael

What about the current horde is the same as the WC3 Horde?

I talked about the themes, they are still horde, until today, so sorry Gantrithor, this theme were never shared or splittet, they are still the core of the Horde, but got twistet from certain characters to use this theme as a weakness against the “Enemy”

@Gantrithor-myzrael

Those themes being what?

• Build a Home in a world who didn´t like you (but now, with even more understandable reasons)
• Survival
• To create a place that belongs to the horde without restriction and does not require constant sacrifice of life to keep that place horde.

A few examples

@Gantrithor-myzrael

What?

Say me, do you still can really trust a single more grey horde leader and her/his words? I can´t.

@Gantrithor-myzrael

That’s true of both factions.

i agree.

@Gantrithor-myzrael

That’s what this thread is about. So stop whining about the feelings of the Night Elf players.

I answered sarm there, and i have posted a few suggestions in time…

[Gantrithor-myzrael]

@Morghel-daggerspine

How they die and why is just as, if not more important that they die.

Let me get this straight.

Horde players should just be OK with how Arthas and KJ were taken out just because they were taken out.

But Alliance can be salty about how Nathanos and Saurfang were taken out?

Double standard much?

[Shernish-nazjatar]

Arthas and Kil’Jeden did not want to die.

[Morghel-daggerspine]

@Droité-black-dragonflight

I still don’t get your point. Because as I told Micah, there are only two Core racial leaders left from BfA. Baine and Lor’themar. The least contentious Horde leaders for the majority of the Alliance and Alliance players.

And I still have 0 and no reasons to consider them anything but mortal enemies, with how late they were to rebell, and the fact that so far, they have done nothing to make up for it, beyond Thrall promising something he can’t promise. They haven’t executed a single loyalist or sent them over to the Alliance, seemingly letting them walk free after a stern talking to.

@Droité-black-dragonflight

The rest though? Weren’t in charge during Teld. They may have participated in the 4th WAR for the Horde after Teld occured, but Thrall, Gazlowe, Voss/Calia, and even Rokhan (who was not leader of the Darkspear until 8.3) do not share that sin.

You act like not being part of the burning excuses the rest, when they willingly joined up and fought for the ones that did. That’s bad enough by itself. That they then took so long to rebell, and did so little afterwards, further condemns them in my eyes. If at all possible, I don’t want to ever interact with the likes of Thalyssra or Gazlowe ever again, or pretend that they aren’t enemies.

@Droité-black-dragonflight

Its more its seems your just feeling Blue Balled because it was largely Blizz (and not the Alliance) that did that culling and doled out that punishment.

nah, because the Scourge and Legion don’t pretend to be anything but enemies.

@Sarm-malganis

But that sounds like it would have made Nathanos unkillable to you, because there’s no way to bump off a suicidal NPC without “rewarding” them.

In that case, I would actually much have preffered that Tyrande didn’t kill him, and instead threw him in a box and sent him to the Wardens for storage. Then, after dealing with Sylvanas and the whole Shadowlands thing, they could kill him.

@Gantrithor-myzrael

Horde players should just be OK with how Arthas and KJ were taken out just because they were taken out.

But Alliance can be salty about how Nathanos and Saurfang were taken out?

Did Arthas or KJ want to die? Did either of them die as anything but villains, their plans shattered into pieces?

Their deaths are not comparable, no. Not by a mile.

[Shernish-nazjatar]

Who was dying a hero? Grommash? М… Should the Alliance forgive him? No, the analogy is wrong.

[Gantrithor-myzrael]

@Morghel-daggerspine

Did Arthas or KJ want to die? Did either of them die as anything but villains, their plans shattered into pieces?

Their deaths are not comparable, no. Not by a mile.

Yes, yes, yes. Keep proving my point.

NOTHING will please the Alliance.

Tyrande got the KB on Nathanos. Horde got nothing from Arthas or KJ. But yeah Horde should just be happy those characters died.

[Shernish-nazjatar]

Well… You killed Garrosh. Rejoice.

[Gantrithor-myzrael]

@Shernish-nazjatar

You killed Garrosh.

And the Night Elves killed Fandral. Guess they have nothing to complain about now, right?

[Droité-black-dragonflight]

@Morghel-daggerspine

And I still have 0 and no reasons to consider them anything but mortal enemies, with how late they were to rebell, and the fact that so far, they have done nothing to make up for it, beyond Thrall promising something he can’t promise. They haven’t executed a single loyalist or sent them over to the Alliance, seemingly letting them walk free after a stern talking to.

Than I have no reason as a Horde player to consider you anything but an Enemy. Because your narrative satisfaction truly comes with the expectation that my Faction existing at all in your game and your story is a problem. With little room for context on WHY the Horde was forced to do what it did (with Blizzard feeling far more comfortable using the Faction as a plot device like they did), and WHY the Alliance can’t even fringe on that sort of treatment (because Blizz maintains some absurd moral purity test with them, and clearly does not feel as free to do anything they want with them).

Thus, Morg, I have no reason to even consider humoring your gripes. Your constant winging about needing to reassert your dominance, because your Absolutist Power Fantasy was infringed upon. And I’ll just go back to my standard stance. BfA sucked for EVERYONE. It was a nightmarish experience for both Factions, and you having zero emotional investment in the Horde (and a ton in the Alliance) doesn’t change that reality. So, with the reality being “The Alliance did not win the War” … there is nothing the Alliance can demand at all from the Horde. And everything we do as recompense is voluntary. So suck it up.

[Morghel-daggerspine]

@Gantrithor-myzrael

Tyrande got the KB on Nathanos. Horde got nothing from Arthas or KJ. But yeah Horde should just be happy those characters died.

Is context completely lost on you? Or do you really think Nathanos and Saurfang went out in a similar fashin to Arthas and KJ?

[Shernish-nazjatar]

I don’t know. Fandral was not the main creep of the supplement. Did the night elves really kill him? Okay. I guess so. I don’t know how to feel about that.

[Gantrithor-myzrael]

@Morghel-daggerspine

Is context completely lost on you?

Is the point of this thread completely lost on you?

I’ll spell it out for you again:

@Gantrithor-myzrael

Horde don’t need to redeem themselves in the eyes of the Alliance, either its characters or players. The Horde owes the Alliance nothing. The Horde needs to decide for itself what it is and if the Alliance (characters or players) doesn’t like it they can pound sand.

[Shernish-nazjatar]

@Droité-black-dragonflight

So, with the reality being “The Alliance did not win the War” … there is nothing the Alliance can demand at all from the Horde. And everything we do as recompense is voluntary. So suck it up

What do we have in terms of military forces? The Night Elves have most of their armies alive, the Alliance (Eastern Kingdoms) have huge losses, the Evil Horde have to recruit militia, and the Good Horde have not enough of them either.
So… Can the Night Elves take revenge on everyone in the world?

[Talkaar-wyrmrest-accord]

Morg, but Saurfang isn’t a villain, no matter how much you dislike him.

Blizz did not intend for him to be one. The complaint in this case should be “they made a non-villain look like one” instead of “they gave a villain a heroic death”.

[Droité-black-dragonflight]

So are we making things up now? Because despite numbers never mattering, like it or not the actual Horde losses in the War were actually pretty insubstantial compared to that of the Alliance. With our biggest “loss” of actual troops being Zulduzar in the entire war, and the vast majority of those forces lost came from the Zandalari. The Horde was capable of fielding two full armies at the end of the War. The Horde in no way was left in a position of weakness by the end of that conflict. Even if we lost on every front, but who knows how much of that is due to our leader Sylvanas never actually running the War to win it for the Horde after Teld? And rather was simply, always, prioritizing escalation and prolonging tactics.

[Morghel-daggerspine]

@Droité-black-dragonflight

Than I have no reason as a Horde player to consider you anything but an Enemy. Because your narrative satisfaction truly comes with the expectation that my Faction existing at all in your game and your story is a problem.

You can’t possibly expect me to want anything to do with Horde characters after bfa. With the exception of maybe Baine, all of them are guilty. They invaded Darkshore, invaded Kul’tiras, and if not they aided those that did. Because to them, winning the war was apparently more important than petty things like not aiding genociders. That’s the characters you want me to work with, without them doing anything at all to make up for what they did. Would you also ask the Forsaken and Belfs to team up with the Scourge?

@Talkaar-wyrmrest-accord

Blizz did not intend for him to be one.

Then they failed miserably with that, from the Alliance perspective.

[Gantrithor-myzrael]

Remember folks:

Alliance have a right to be upset about how the deaths of Nathanos and Saurfang (2 of the 3 architects of the WoT) were portrayed because an Alliance capital was destroyed.

Horde do not have the right to be upset about how the deaths of Arthas and KJ (The entire reason the Forsaken exist and the reason the Horde was created in the first place) were portrayed because … reasons.

Alliance bias at its finest.

[Sarm-malganis (Sarm)]

@Morghel-daggerspine

Then they failed miserably with that, from the Alliance perspective.

Welcome to BFA.