I think this come from the fact that blizzard just don’t know what morally grey is. It is always either awefull good or awefull bad. And if something start to be morally questionable, it have to be hit with the morally bat and get rid of. So the faction conflict still end up in a good vs bad story.
The bfa horde leader group is the best example for this. Excluding the allied race leader, any horde leader that wasn’t super good get rid of. Sylvanas got hit with the evil bat, Galiwix just get kick out for reason and replace by someone who isn’t even part of the horde goblin cartel. Finally, Saurfang who was a more nuanced leader who did atrocity at time but could see when it was going to far, got killed.
So now the horde roster is full of good leader but is more boring than ever. All that because blizzard couldn’t deal with the bit evil but charismatic Sylvanas that we had in SoO or the scum but funny as hell Galiwix.
That also why blizzard can do good with boss like the Lich King and Lei Shen. Because they can do their good vs evil without hurting anyone which work way more than doing the good faction vs the bad faction.
Correct. And we can speculate as to why (e.g. US Overton Window range where Left-of-Center is EXTREME LEFTIST distorting sociopolitical norms, US public education apologetics for US war crimes so genocide is okay, lack of Emotional Intelligence among much of the Team Leadership, lack of personal life experiences that were complexed of this nature) but yes.
Not only are they unaware of what morally grey is, they think “grey” is reached by painting one faction white and another black. But alas! The game is not paint.
To be fair. Sylvanas has always been a horrible person, she just didn’t go out and out villain until BfA. You don’t get praised for acting like Nathrezim by ACTUAL Nathrezim in WC3 for “being a good person”. And when you’re only response to the question of what makes you different than the LK in Cata was “because I serve the Horde” (which was suss as hell then, and proven false now) … that was also not a good sign. Her portrayal in EoN was monstrous. Her behavior in Warcrimes was Unhinged. She’s pulling direct homages to Arthas “new world order” line to only the Horde PC in Stormheim. I wish people would stop pretending the facets of her characterization that could lead her on a path like the one she went on came out of nowhere. What was more forced was her being made Warchief, and everyone else being silenced for convenience for years on end.
As for Wix. Goblin Cartels aren’t families. They aren’t clans. They are nations. They are businesses. During the Cartel Wars its likely many Cartels rose, fell, and changed hands any number of times. Wix took the Bilgewater from Trade Prince Maldy by force himself; and we have no idea if he was of the Cartel before that. There is also no Gob in all of Warcraft with more history with the Horde than Gazlowe. And if Gobs had been a playable race in Vanilla, he absolutely would have been the Horde Racial Lead for them. Gobs wont stress his taking charge. And Wix’s continued leadership of the Bilgewater has always been weird and arbitrary since Cata.
I agree that Sylvanas had some very evil development but she also had some great development that showed us that she was doing it for the good of the forsaken. Since her development was clearly make by many different dev who all had different direction to go with her, someone can say that she was evil and someone else can say that she had reason and both of them would be right depending of which version of her.
But at the end, until Legion, the scale of it was so small that she could easily just be consider as a grey edgy character, which was totally fine as long as she was a side leader of a side race like it was until Legion. This was leading us with way more interesting story or interaction such as Sylvanas and Lorthemar in the Galakras which was one of the best interaction that leader had in WoW. I understand that people hated her and wanted her gone as the warchief but as the leader of the forsaken only, if was way more than okay to keep her as the forsaken leader.
I am not saying that Gazlowe being the leader make no sense and that i don’t like him. I adore Gazlowe and i am very happy for him to become a more important character. My problem is that we had to sacrifice yet a other interesting and not awefull good character for it. Yeah Galiwix is a scum, i am not denying it at all but this is exactly what make it more interesting. Even more after we finally had some moment of him in Bfa which was once again some of the best dialogue in the game and make him more likeable than before.
Why did we had to get rid of him and have Gazlow as the bilgewater carter? Wouldn’t it have been better to just have the steamweedle cartel to also join the horde with Gazlow as leader and having him to handle the money freak Galliwix instead? Would have prefer if the Galliwix punishment would have been to be force to kind of follow Gazlowe commend but still have him trying to do his greedy stuff behind his back. Of course Gazlowe would be the only one at the horde council.
This would have not only make the leader situation way more interesting while also reinforce the goblin as a horde race and not just a overall neutral race. Both of the cartel would be a bit like the alliance dwarf clan.
Of course this is all my opinion but i am very sure that it would have been way more interesting than having just Gazlowe who will probably be turn as a yes man in order to be part of the new good horde council.
Here’s sort of my stance with both Sylvanas as Wix. In part because I have for many years seen Sylvie through her EoN iteration. And thus saw her as the Forsaken’s manipulative abuser, who just found a new role for them with her bulwark. I love both of them as characters. They are immensely entertaining, and interesting. I am always fascinated by them when they are on screen. And I am one of those who’s not really “sick” of Sylvanas, I just don’t want her in the Horde. In part, because of the second part of this.
I came to hate both of them as PC racial leaders. Especially not within a Faction that is largely supposed to be Monstrous, but ALSO Heroic. Which, over the years meant that both characters had to rely on an increasing amount of Plot Convenience to get away with all the stuff they did. Largely by forcing the other racial leaders around them to constantly look the other way when it was time for their nonsense. I also wasn’t particularly fond of the fact that both of their respective races were so dominated by their overbearing presences. Because, truly, I am far more a fan of the Forsaken and Goblins conceptually as races … than I am of Wix and Sylvie as characters. And over the years, it came off to me like their stories were coming at the expense of the races they were supposed to be representing. Which became very unappealing to me.
In short, I’m not fond how it happened, but with who both characters became … I’m glad they’re no longer in the Horde. That doesn’t translate into me wanting them dead (in fact I’d be elated if Wix goes on to lead the Venture Co.), I’m just glad they aren’t of the Horde/Forsaken/Bilgewater anymore. I’m weird that way.
‘Current’ Blizzard also made Bwonsamdi into a submissive scared little thing in Adrenweald when talking to the Winter Queen. So… I am really not happy about how future writing will go in the future.
I think he should’ve stayed sinister and mysterious, like how he was in BfA. But now I fear that he’s been ‘ruined’ somehow. How can they fix him?
For the forsaken, i don’t necessary agree with the fact that Sylvanas was a bad thing for the forsaken. If you see the forsaken with the same standard as the other race, then yes. But the forsaken are really a special case. Mostly due to the fact that they don’t really have any reason to continue to exist. This is a thing since the start of Wow that a lot of people have a problem with the existence of the forsaken and the fact that they had no reason to continue to raise other forsaken.
This is where Sylvanas was so much important. Because her selfish utilisation of the forsaken gave them a reason to exist and to continue. She was their saviour and their reason to be. Now that she is gone and that the forsake want to be good, what reason in the world would they have to raise a other being without his contentment? Why would a human want to be part of the enemy faction all of sudent?
Is this super weird of a whole race to be just a tool for a single abusive character? Yes. But this what was the forsaken was and what make them more interesting than other race. Now, they are probably be turn into just being colder and decomposing human in the horde with nothing more that would make them interesting.
As for Galliwix, as i told you i am not asking for him to lead all the horde goblin and be a important horde character. Gazlowe would have still be the one taking most of the decision as a punishment of Galliwix action in Bfa. Just that he would still be a relevant character, just enough to make thing more interesting and give us funny interaction.
I respect your opinion of not liking more questionable character in the horde but you need to understand that if you are to ask for everyone of them out, than don’t complain later that the horde leader are all boring goody two shoes hero.
Considering that we both agree with the lack of important horde character development, i feel like asking for horde leader to be gone doesn’t help our case and that we should just ask for every kind of possible character instead so everyone kind find one that they like more.
I mean, after BfA that is absolutely something they share with the other races of the Horde. We are a faction comprised of people and races that should not exist. For any number of reasons. Including our Horde elves, that propagate an abomination culture that was supposed to be eradicated after the Sundering. And just like them, the Forsaken do have several conceputally interesting ways Forward as an actual people. Especially if we’re allowed to explore the dual identity concept of BtS, and something tangible comes from either: A) Maldraxxus, the root of the Scourge; B) The Scourge itself, as once the Jailor’s influence is gone there could be many that can be nursed back to mental health; or C) Both. They no longer have to find value in only being accessories for Sylvanas anymore. They can actually explore who they are as “a people” again.
EDIT: And my general rule when it comes to PC villians (Applying to both Wix and Sylvie), is that I don’t like villains who get away with their nonsense because the plot demands it. Because of plot-convenience. Because it means their nonsense comes at the expense of everyone around them, due to those characters lack of response. Just like in BfA. And that sort of scenario doesn’t remind me of a compelling villain, but of a school yard bully who has rich parents. Who gets away with everything and anything they want, not due to their own merit … but because they’re protected by some “influential force”. I would rather have a consistent goodie-two shoes Faction, than one held hostage by the needs of their “villainous” compatriots. No matter how interesting they are.
Disagree, every other horde race have a reason to be. I think you confound reason to be and reason to still be in power. Does the horde race still have a reason to be in a position of power after all they did? They is a good question. But do they still have a reason to be??? Yes, 100%. If you look at the real life you, for any nation or group of people, 2 main reason to be repeat himself. The protection of your culture and to ensure the future of your people/future generation. So any race who have a culture and who have children all have way more than enough reason to be. This is the case for every horde race except forsaken. Both elf want to keep the highborn culture of the biggest empire of Azeroth. Like that culture or not they are going to keep it. Troll, tauren and orc still want to keep their old spiritual culture. All of them can have children.
The forsaken? They don’t really have any culture to them and can’t reproduce. In fact, they are doom to become mindless zombie soon or later. They have no past culture to protect and have no future to ensure. If we really want to give them the ability to reason and think by themself, the only logical avenue would be for them to go back to their family until the end and than ask to be, you know, put down or if they can’t or don’t have any family, most of them would probably not waited to that point and just put them self down right away. This is the burden of a race that have no human logic reason to exist.
Fair enough then. I think we both have our opinion on how we want the faction to be and both of our opinion of those character match our opinion of the faction.
For my contribution I’d like to see Loa be more unique. Slotting the majority of them under Wild Gods is such a disservice to both and another symptom of homogenization. They’ve always felt very different from Wild Gods, such as in the Vol’Jin leader short story and novels.
It’s also disappointing how easily they are jobbed. Hir’eek and Rezan especially made me ???
Introducing Loa in Zandalar really helped expand Trolls and added more info to rp elements for Troll chracters, I’d like to see them more in Troll society helping to rebuild and solidifying Troll Shadow Hunters as a something you don’t want to mess with.
I mean, Giant Magical Animal being all the same category of being makes perfect narrative sense; plus again, not all Loa are Wild Gods, just Animal Loa are Wild Gods.
Beings like Bwonsamdi and Mueh’zala are not Wild Gods; the question, however, remains as to what they are.
Plus, would like to see more of the humanoid Loa from the RPG: Chango etc, the ones based on other IRL Orisha and Lwa.
The real problem is:
Night Elf Wild Gods can decimate entire cosmic armies; Troll Wild Gods can be one-shot by the player.
It’s just weird when, and I believe this was Hir’eek, saying(or Vol’jin commenting) he chooses to take the form of Bat rather than that being his natural state. There is just some disconnect there for me, at least some of the Animal Loa don’t seem to be what they appear. Which I find interesting.
I hope we get more Loa like Bwom, as people liked the Baron Samedi parallels, here’s hoping we might get more.
After fending off many demons; none were one-shot or equivalent.
I don’t recall this anywhere nor is it on the wowpedia page (which is by no means guaranteed exhaustive)? I mean certainly all Wild Gods can transform, whether becoming bigger/smaller or take on other forms (like all the August Celestials did), but Hireek is a “Bat”. In his case, he probably is a literal Bat but takes the form of a gargoyle-esque body.
Don´t play the fool, it doesn´t look good enough on you. We both know I´m talking about the “elves ruined muh Hurde and I´d like if they didn´t make part of it” QQ BS that you yes, have admited to feel several times -even told me directly-.
I don´t need to be reminded by the n-esim time some of you rather don´t have Belf fans in “your precious faction” tyvm, as I mentioned Helfers and MHP have you guys covered.
Dude, if you felt Lor´themar simping over Calia was too much prominence then be my guest, I agree someone that doesn´t have the historical baggage regarding Arthas -like Rokhan unironically- would have made for a supremely less stupid simp.
Character as fiction entities can NOT act “willingly”. They simply follow the premises the idiots creating the stuff put in their development paths, no more and no less. And I think we Hordies have had pointed this FIRST: precisely how Teldrassil was MUCH worse for our faction precisely because it dumped in the characterization and future development of our racial leaders.
Sometimes killing character before they become a joke is a more merciful action to take with them, I know I´d haven´t lost my respect to Saurfang had he died there on Darkshore after issuing Mak´goka to Sylvanas. And I would have preferred for the imbeciles writting this to respect Lor´themar´s previous development since freaking MoP -especifically the SoO one- in which he was the FIRST person to point out how Sylvanas was bad news; not for them to make him a passive scared sub to her dominatrix self. But unfortunately for me this didn´t happen and my fav characters will either have to continue in the story wih these and other glaring disgusting stuff getting attached to them -like the Calia simping in Lor´s case- or simply die after doing nothing but moan, cry and “take philosophycal lessons from a writer´s pet character” -like Saurfang´s apalling BfA development-.
So when you guys talk about hitting plus begging plus more characterization humiliation (apparently all the Horde racial leaders need a “shame walk” on top of the things you were previously asking for) we frankly don´t actually feel you guys have our emotional stance in your best interests. Ergo why we don´t think you people will be able to concoct decent stuff for the “aftercare” (I mean sorry but if your idea of “aftercare” is to put Alliance / Alliance flavored / formerly Alliance individuals in MY Horde story to reenact an episode of the “Carebears”, then you´re clueless, plain cruel, or both. Cause after ALL that the last thing I´d like to get is YOUR faction to continue to get shoved into my face tyvm).
Well, that´s what you get for lying to us instead of being honest since the beginning and starting to sprout beligerency yourself. Don´t assume we were A-ok with the blatant idiocy that *destroyed the characterization of our racial leaders, but then don´t blame us for not wanting to get the DK troll reatment -years without racial leader- or worse the Forsaken one -to get Alliance characters shoved down our throats as “potential racial leaders” like in the Calia case-.
Casue if you believe Blizzard will devote an ounce of their resources in filling on those leaders spots, I have a bridge on mars I can sell to you.
No, what I feel “ruined the horde” was two storylines basically playing the monster trope straight by villaining up the faction in both Cata/MoP and then BFA. Yes, it’s true that I’m just not a fan of blood elves being in the horde, although I can get why they were added and I can see why they’d have a certain appeal as an inversion race because the idea of the one pretty race in the faction being the REAL monsters underneath could have a certain charm. But it’s not something I like personally. I think I’ve been pretty open about that.
As for the prevalence, it’s way beyond just Lor’themar talking to Calia which, surprise, her appearance actually is one of several things I dislike about her. And believe it or not, I didn’t like Sylvanas or Nathanos done up as discolored humans either. But what I was really talking about was a series of portrayals that I felt undermined the “coming together” awkwardness of already-frustrating storylines by choosing to use more elves as the horde’s bridge race to work alongside the other faction. It’s Lor’themar that’s used as the reasonable one when de-escalating with Jaina in MoP. Which, fair enough, this was post-Purge so that makes sense in isolation.
Then what’s (to me) the only example of horde presence in Legion being positive? Elves again, working with elves to help more elves. But whatever, at the time I was viewing that as mostly night elf content anyway so I just rolled with it, and it’s not like I knew Argus was coming, or that the horde mostly wouldn’t feature in it at all.
And then BFA happened with another round of monsters being monsters, and what’s the main bridging moment? Nazjatar, where an elf and an elf and an elf and a human learn to set things aside just long enough to deal with a neutral threat again. Oh and I guess Genn was there too, but he was just as out-of-place as I was.
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