The Horde changing their Warchief to Council does nothing to fix future threats from the Horde or atone for the Horde sins.
Alliance needs their redemption as much the Horde does. But we have talked about this before. In circles we go round and round.
Well, as the title of this thread has sort of been a response to … we have all sort of accepted that there is no real way for the Horde to “redeem” itself by actively pursuing that goal. So it would functionally work far better as a simple byproduct of rebuilding, if it happens. As for what the Alliance need redemption for? I’m not sure. Dealin was totally validated in BfA, and Arthas seems primed to get a redemption in SLs here. The two barely red in the Alliance’s ledger Anduin could come up with are set to be washed away.
For the Alliance to be redeemed they have to have vengeance on the Horde for their crimes and eliminate them as a threat.
So, at least we’re both in the same boat then. Neither faction can ever “redeem” themselves through direct pursuit of that goal.
Alliance sure can.
Punish Horde and build some defences that would stop them when the piece of parchment eventually fails.
I’m pretty sure that Blizzard itself will never be allowed to happen under any circumstances, current armistice or not. AvH is too completely fundamental to the game concept/player experience, nevermind the fact that it’s misused by the current developers to the point where it’s been turned from a fun side thing (where it should always have remained) into a choking cancer killing off chunks of what it was created to promote. I’m a carebear myself but the day they actually truly remove (or make completely inviable in-universe) the faction conflict is the day the game needs to have the plug pulled on it and thrown away forever.
ca’t wait for your rage on the forums once Forsaken take Lordaeron back and humanity is forced to go back to Stormwind. You are pathetic.
They have an extremely black mark on them for standing by Sylvanas for so long. That’s all there is to it, looking at it from this side. You don’t get a medal for opposing a tyrant and monster, when you stood with them for longer.
They don’t have to die, that’s not what we’re saying. But you can’t expect us to simply ignore their complicity in the fourth war, and pretend that we’re anything but enemies.
LMao you can kill the council for all I care. They are trash leaders and needs to disappear. Afterwards we can build the Horde up better with my list of new leaders.
The council has been in place for what? A patch and a half? What exactly do you expect them to do in that time when the focus isn’t on Azeroth or rebuilding?
And their complicity had everything to do with Blizz essentially writing Teld out of the story for the Horde; and why Derek exists. God I hate Blizz. They tarnished every god damned character we had because they could not figure out how to prevent the majority of the Horde from rebelling against her immediately after Teld. But still “needed” Teld, to let Sylvanas do what she needed to do to settup SLs. And since that was the priority, rather than doing the barest sensible thing they could to make sense of this delay from characters who should be outraged (especially Baine and Lorth’emar, for different reasons) … they just “wrote Teld out” of the Horde story! Then created Derek as some BS dissent catalyst on the “approved patch for rebellion”.
When all they really had to do was sacrifice their “Twist” Betrayal ending and commit to an entrapment narrative (which was teased in small doses already btw). With Sylvie using “Fear of Justified Alliance Reprisal” for what she made the Horde an unwitting Tool for, as a means to keep the Horde in line long enough to get what she wanted out of them. She was always going to bail! All her tactics ONLY make sense in the lens of keeping the conflict as Escalated and Prolongued as possible anyway. She’s also a master of those sort of manipulation tactics based on half truths. And selling narratives to control people. It would have even made most of Anduin’s choices and tactics in BfA make more sense, as his goal would be trying to prove Sylvie’s narrative wrong enough to give the Horde themselves breathing room to oust her. Without the fear that the Alliance would just destroy them anyway, if they weakened themselves enough to try to deal with her themselves.
BOOM! An easy change in tone, that would absolutely not have made for a more enjoyable experience for the Horde player … but would have made more sense of this stupid disjointed War story. With it all boiling down to a simple entrapment “Rock and a Hard Place” battle of narratives. Sylvie trying to maintain the Lie that the Alliance were invested in a War of extermination against the Horde as a justified response to Teld (and actually give them reasons to invest in one, like Derek or Darkshore); and Anduin trying to walk the tightrope between running a war and not reinforcing her narrative. To give the Horde breathing room to turn on her. With agents on both sides frustrating their efforts. And all it would have cost … is that “sudden but inevitable betrayal” twist.
A little bit more than one of it’s members give a half assed promise to Tyrande, is what i’d expect, after the magnitude of the Horde’s crimes.
I agree, and I feel like lorewise the Horde would have rebelled far, far earlier had prior characterization allowed to matter. But that didn’t happen, so here we are.
You’ll never be satisfied.
And like I said … Baine is the perfect symbol for us as a Faction atm. We are “a worthless plot-device who’s characterization needs are always set aside for Blizz’s needs to use us”. Which is why we have this horrific “Faction Conflict” story, where truly neither Faction was actually important. The Horde was a powerless vehicle, having no input where they were driven by the characters that "Really Mattered’ (Sylvanas and Nate). While the Alliance was a helpless passenger, just along for the ride.
Seriously, how the absolute hell does this story exist? And again, at bare minimum if you still wanted the majority of the story beats, an Entrapment Narrative for the Horde would have at least made more sense of their delay. And Anduin’s tactics. Its even hinted subtly that this was a factor by quite a few Horde characters in BfA already. But, because Blizz wanted their festering feces cake and wanted us to eat it too with their “twist” (shocking betrayal) ending … they ignored this easy tonal beat. That again, would not have made it more enjoyable to play through … but at least would have made things make more sense on nearly every side of the Faction isle. Especially since, AGAIN, its actually there already. Its just buried in side dialogue and was never committed to!
I’m just…angry that some bimbo corporate moron at Blizzard thought BfA in it’s current state was a good story and actually okayed it 
With Blizzard’s current writing, probably not. But I also can’t feed myself on refuse and garbage, so there is that.
After BfA was handled, I doubt a lot of people will be satisfied. At least SL is enjoyable.For me anyway 
This might sound weird coming from me, but it’s a little disheartening to hear you also dejected enough that even when hypothetically rewriting BFA, the expansion premise is so far gone that “would this be fun?” still isn’t even a factor.
I know I’ve knocked you for it before but I was always a little envious of your enthusiasm for something better afterward.
Look, I have very strong opinions on the Faction Conflict as a whole … but with the building blocks we had in BfA (keeping them mostly as they are to do what Blizz apparently needed to settup SLs and the ARs) … there was A way to make a coherent story out of it. There was NOT a way to make an enjoyable one out of it.
An Entrapment narrative for the Horde would have made sense of their delay on rebelling; Sylvie’s tactics; Anduin’s tactics; and even Baine’s “straw that broke the camel’s back” moment. It would have left the Horde quite a bit more wiggle room for “redemption” afterwards. Given more agency to everyone involved. And most importantly (by far the most important), allowed EVERYONE on EVERY SIDE to have an opinion about Teldrassil; and recognize how horrific that event was. Even if the Horde is so terrified by the risk of what they see as justified reprisal, that they don’t feel the freedom to turn against Sylvanas … without risk of the Alliance just destroying them. And Anduin desperately trying to both wage a war AND give them that breathing room.
But … no. I’m under no illusions. This strong tonal shift in the Horde’s narrative likely would have made for a far stronger, more coherent narrative. But it would not have been an enjoyable one to play through. For either side. Sad to say. If you wanted even a chance at a “positive” Faction Conflict story, BfA was never going to be it. And you’d need Vol’jin still leading the Horde to even have that chance. NOT Sylvanas vs Anduin.
I think blizz problem is, they’re great at making up awesome bosses like the Lich King, Lei Shen, etc for us to fight, they’re just clueless when it comes to writing a actual morally grey faction conflict.