We’ll just have to agree to disagree than.
You are arguing the Horde did not win hard enough in WoT. I doubt you will have many people that agree with that.
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Which was the point I was making. Maybe they think they didn’t burn the tree hard enough or something 
I’d say it’s a lot closer than you think Droite, if the Night elven military is present at it’s full force, including ancients and wild gods. I’m not saying they could beat the Horde anywhere. But in their own lands, i’d say they have enough advantages to atleast make it costly enough where the Horde wouldn’t want to.
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I believe droits point was the horde didn’t win anything in the fourth war, every battlefront was a loss. Every advantage the horde gained with the zandalari fleet was lost quick, the only victory being that the horde barely took darkshore and that was because of some lucky smugglers route through the mountains’.
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At least you get the point I was trying to make
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Same thing for the Alliance really.
This tug of war of territories didn’t achieve anything for Alliance either.
At least the Horde can point towards the extra story content and faction growth as a win if they liked it. But otherwise Alliance ended up where they used to be minus the NEs and another entry in their book of grudges.
I know this might sound whiny but in my mind, Night Fae stuff doesn’t count because of its neutral nature. You can’t be certain if it’s a horde or an alliance player canonically doing that stuff, so I don’t feel the game can simply assume it’s a horde player actually getting credit for helping. But the player did have to help put them there.
In my opinion, they are. On a meta level, everyone can rail along with how the player character didn’t have a choice, but the game’s yes-man nature of questing means that in-universe, the horde player does go along with it.
Yet the alliance can point to definitive wins such as gaining Darkshore back (possibly ashenvale but Blizz refuses to comment on that) they won the Arathi warfront kicking out the horde there. Plus the alliance has almost complete control of the eastern kingdoms now, while the night elves return to Hyjal to lick their wounds while SLs continues.
Comparatively the horde lost rastahkan as a leader of the Zandalari people, lost Syl due to her being a villain (totally expected that to happen sooner then Bfa honestly) and Saurfang, these are all lore characters that has significance to the horde, while technically Rasta never joined the horde he was important to trolls.
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How can we even be talking about this when you could take a long walk off a short pier instead?
Yes. I know that. I was proposing that scenario to give an example of how it’s entirely possible for the night elves to get a satisfying, full-bodied win at the end of Shadowlands without needing to even mention the Horde once.
Yes. I know. I was speculating on a potential ending that I think could make sense.
Population numbers do not matter in WoW. They never have and they never will. The night elves will not go extinct unless the writers decide to make it so.
They were immortal from the time they became night elves by the Well of Eternity’s power all the way up to the destruction of Nordrassil. We have no idea how long their true, natural lifespans are. Trolls certainly don’t live to be thousands of years old.
Are you seriously trying to convince me that regaining their immortality wouldn’t be a win? Something the nelves have been trying to do since the end of WCIII? You weren’t kidding, you really AREN’T a nelf fan.
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Winning what you lost just brings you back to zero at the best of circumstances. Let me know when Alliance actually conquers new territories and holds them permanently through visual content rather than dialogue lines or twitter posts.
Until we see it then it isn’t really relevant. At least to me. Horde get the cinematic experience of kicking the Alliance in 8 different directions and all I get is a fortune cookie pep talk isn’t what I consider fair.
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I never did the War of Thorns on any of my toons during the pre-event, and always chose to side with Saurfang during the BFA war campaign. I didn’t even buy BFA until last year. I played Classic instead.
They gave me the choice to play their new game or their old game and chose old.
I would argue the player is just as culpable as any of the major faction leaders. Outside Saurfang, none of them started the war and all went along with it. None of them until much later, instead silenced.
I view Baine, Saurfang (who immediately showed outrage over Teldrassil’s burning via cinematic), Zekhan, and the others on the same level as the PC — except for those that chose Sylvannas Loyalist.
And when my player character has a big say in what the Horde does moving forward and interacts with the council…Yes, I would say that also includes faction redemption, providing the player character is able to make meaningful change.
After all, its the player character that helps the Vulpera solve the Council’s problems, and brings the Vulpera into the fold.
Right, but there is a tiny, tiny, tiny problem.
Imagine a family with two kids in it. Now imagine that someone kills those two kids. The culprit is known. Now, it doesn’t matter how fancy the funeral is, or how much the parents gets off life insurance, or even if they were to win a billion dollars on a scratch ticket. What the parents really want, and only want, is to have their kids back. And since that’s impossible, they want justice for their kids, by having the responsible answer for it in some way.
I hope this anology explains why your “compromises” does not work, and never will work, ever. Having a “victory” is rather irrelevant. What matters is that things are settled.
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I feel that the game’s linear nature of questing ever since MoP only makes sense with the assumption that you’ve done what’s available to you, whether the player actually chooses to or not. The ability to opt out is only a gameplay concession so that players don’t get gated by endless questlines, and not because there’s any branching path worth considering.
I ended up never unlocking the Darkshore warfront. Doesn’t mean I shouldn’t consider my character having done it anyway.
Well you’ll never be happy then, as much as I loath BFA I’m not going to let it keep me in such a sour state.
You won’t take the wins, every point others tries to bring up is moot in your eyes as you’ll just cling on to this. I can understand Nelf fans to an extent on why they desire some form of in game stuff to assuage the destruction of 2 zones, but alliance as a whole? Not really going to shred a tear when they narratively come out on top, barring night elf and worgen who should have been allowed to retake gilneas at this point.
I think on the blame-o meter Sylvanas and Saurfang top the charts.
I don’t care he is mad or unhappy or sad, the guy should have known better especially considering his sordid past.
I don’t think his post WoT journey did anything to redeem him or Baine for that matter.
I blame Blizzard for failing to make their journey’s compelling. They just come across incredibly selfish jerks to me.
All I want is a win I can see in the game rather than get told about it in an interview or quest dialogue. I don’t think I am asking for the moon here.
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I mean i get that you are mad about it and doesn’t ask you to not be but on the other side, look at what the horde was looking like in bfa.
First: If you feel like idiot to trust the horde, don’t you think the horde player also felt like idiot for once again trusting a mad evil warchief and we only start realising after we committed so much atrocity that we might start doubting her…
Second: So not only we are idiot, we are also evil no matter how we want to put the blame on Sylvanas. Great now we are idiot and evil…
Third: As Droité point out, the big horde victory feel kind of underwhelming when we are being told that we had to fight the night elf when most of their force aren’t there otherwise the full strength of the horde wouldn’t be able to handle one since alliance race. Add to that the fact that the alliance won every other battle following this ( lordaeron,dazar alor and both warfront). So not only the horde are idiot and evil, but we are also weak as hell…
Finally: After being told that we were idiot,weak evil crap, it is not like we get out of this unscratched. At the end of Bfa, the horde had lost one capital city and 3 race leader along with the second more important character for the forsaken.
So after all that, don’t you think that the horde also suffered enough? So when you say:
Don’t you think that this is reasonable for horde player to just want to have something good for their faction without having to get beat even more? Don’t you think that it might be less reasonable to demand that you faction, who had it hard, beat the crap of a faction that had it at least as hard just so your faction, and only you faction, can have it better???
Since the two faction are as beating as right now, don’t you think that the best solution should be to let both of them getting better instead of just helping one faction by beating the crap out of the other faction??? Because that is actually what alliance player ask when they want revenge against a already broken faction.
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The ANCIENT and WILD GODS have never ONCE in their entire history intefered in what they believe to be a war between two mortal political powers. Not the Wild Gods, not the Aspects, not even the Stone Giants.
If there were any race in all of the fantasy genre that proved Age =/= Wisdom, its the WC Elves (all of them, not just the NEs). The NEs DON’T have a monopoly on Guerilla tactics. The 10k year old tech and tactics they still dogmatically rely on were developed to combat the Highborne and Legion; so they aren’t magically universal. They’re slow to adapt, culturally resistant to military advancement, and lived 10k years in relative peace. The idea that they just get to magically keep their military supremacy on Kalimdor while doing absolutely nothing to maintain it, suggests their true expected super power is just invalidating the racial strengths of everyone around them. Nothing in the actual lore backs the expectation that they are this stupidly and arbitrarily powerful. Not WC3, not the WotA, certainly not the War of the Shifting Sands or the War of Satyr. They’ve always been portrayed as “Formidable”, but not “Overwhelming” until one of their trust fund parents come in to save them.
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