I don’t think Loukas has ever looked at the Path of Glory.
I remember these kinds of statements for Garrosh before 5.3, too. Since BfA has been following MoP’s script so closely, I look forward to 8.3 where Sylvanas is rounding up Blood Elves, Tauren, and Orcs on top of Darkspear Trolls for execution, so that this statement will more accurately be “Sylvanas will do anything to the Horde, no matter how immoral.”
Easy. Garrosh wasn’t even the first issue with the Horde. Just the loudest one in MoP. MoP 2.0 sucks but we can blame MoP 1.0 for being the cleaning house plot and not actually cleaning the house.
Well, the main difference is that Garrosh started turning on other Horde races first. So you could make the argument that he was disloyal first. Therefor there WAS no conflict between honor and loyalty. Overthrowing Garrosh was BOTH the honorable AND loyal thing to do.
By contrast, all of Sylvanas’ dishonorable actions were aimed at the Alliance. She didn’t start turning against her fellow Horde until they started betraying her. So there actually IS a contrast between honor and loyalty this time.
because “mop didnt do enough” or something like that
No, there isn’t. Vol’jin gave death threats to Garrosh as soon as he became Warchief. The conflict between them came from Vol’jin’s side. Garrosh didn’t turn against Horde races until the last patch and you can see there were still goblins on his side.
And it still doesn’t explain why Orcs would follow Sylvanas even if it was true, because he didn’t turn on Orcs. But still “most Orcs opposed Garrosh” last we heard from Blizzard.
But the whole Horde always had the same definition of honor, respecting their ways and morals. (ex. Not fighting an enemy with no weapon)
All of Sylvanas actions completely bash the honor of the Horde, and mind you that’s the FOUNDATION of their whole ideology. Going against honor is like going against the Horde.
And as we know Orcs prioritize honor, but seem to be having trouble deciding what comes first, honor or loyalty? When that answer was given expansions ago with Mists of Pandaria. Blind loyalty isn’t the same as good ol’ loyalty.
You can’t say there is a difference this time.
Okay people say this a lot, but can you define honor for me in this context? Give me a list of all the things that are honorable and al the things that aren’t. Or even just a general guideline.
Honor: They act according to their moral/respecting it.
Orcs are the main race of the Horde and one of their founding races. They strive to maintain honor and keep it above all. Dying with honor, fighting with honor, etc…
We can see one of the biggest examples of honor in the Novel ‘‘Of Blood and Honor’’:
Eitrigg was discovered years later living in the ruins of an abandoned watch tower near Hearthglen by the paladin Tirion Fordring. At first regarding each other as nothing but enemies, the two began to fight one another. Their fight caused the tower to collapse, and Eitrigg ended up saving the unconscious Tirion’s life by pulling him out of the ruins. From that point forward, Tirion felt he owed a debt of honor to the orc.
However, this was not enough to prevent Eitrigg from being captured. It is certain that the orc would have been put to death in Stratholme, but thanks to the timely intervention of Tirion and Thrall’s new Horde, he was saved. He regarded Tirion as his human brother after suffering such losses to save him.
See, my point is, the Horde has always been mostly a savage yet noble and honorable faction. Sylvanas’ acts, while truly effective war-wise, go against the foundation of the Horde morals.
Something like the Burning of Teldrassil comes to mind.
Hence this sentence:
Makes no sense, since as long as honor is… well honored and kept, agressions can be overlooked. And also, it makes no sense to justify dishonorable actions just because they were aimed at the enemy.
Because even if he wasn’t betraying the Orcs, Garrosh was still betraying The Horde. To those Orcs that were loyal to the idea of The Horde, Garrosh was betraying their own allies, and thus, didn’t deserve loyalty in return.
As long as her dishonorable actions are aimed at the enemy, she’s remaining loyal to the Horde. Meaning those that value loyalty over honor will remain loyal to her.
Okay, I’m still confused. Your definition of honor included the word honor like ten times. I’m looking for what specifically constitutes the concept of orcish honor.
I said
And showed an example of what moral the Orcs went by during their most turmoil-ish period of war with the Humans, back to the concentration camps.
Seriously it was at the beginning, the rest was an example to back up the claims of Orcish honor, it’s not that hard to get.
Okay, so honor is acting according to their morals? Can I get a list of those then?
Ask 5 orcs to define honor, and you’ll get 5 different definitions of honor.
Of course there is no set list in the middle of Orgrimmar that says ‘‘Hey look, these are our morals’’ but if you follow the lore from the creation of the new Horde onwards, you’ll see how they behaved. And from there deduce their morals.
If you want the warchief to follow a code of behavior, that code needs to be explicitly defined. The problem is that it’s incredibly vague and inconsistent. For every example you can give me of something happening that is considered dishonorable I can give you justification for why it isn’t, and vice versa. So using honor as a reason to support or oppose any character is a standard that is impossible to live up to because it’s undefined.
Because sadly, the fact that the Warchief position has been so toyed around. Given to other races and stuff and Blizzard didn’t take the time, as you say, to define a code of behavior this is not really reflected in lore.
But simply looking at Garrosh you can see what the Horde does not want to become, and Sylvanas is exactly the same thing as Garrosh as of now, unless Blizzard redeems her a-la Kerrigan
Just watch Star Trek TNG and DS9. Its what Metzen was binge watching when he hashed out WC3.
What was meant by “honor” was pretty obvious up until Mists. It was always used in contexts of clearly senseless killing, deception or backstabbing.
It was after Garrosh, who had a sense of honor in places like Stonetalon but got villain batted anyway, that honor and what it meant became argued about.
Well honor in a wartior culture thing tends to be no using assassins facing your foes abd not using overly dirty tricks not desecrsting your fallen or those of your enemy things like that
No worries, it’s cool.
In about 2 or 3 years there’s gonna be a twitter post saying that the supporters of Sylvanas were a minority of undead only.