That’s all well and good but in Elegy, one of the Night Elf characters desecrates the bodies of his own dead comrades to lay a trap for the Horde, disguises himself as a Horde soldier, sneaks into the Horde camp, and comes within an arm’s length of assassinating Saurfang. And Saurfang calls that person honorable. Sooo… huh???
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Those Forsaken were defenseless, they were not arming themselves against the Horde.
And by “good of the many”, you mean just Sylvanas, because i don’t see anyone else benefitting from this.
Yeah, cuz you actually get to live. Others aren’t as fortunate as you, others have their lives ended prematurely thanks to their careless warchief.
Cuz killing your own soldiers intentionally will increase the chances of survival.
Orcs have been the most consistently warlike people. From their war with the ogres, to warring on the Draenei, to the 1st and 2nd wars, orcs have been fighting massive scale wars for generations. Saurfang, himself, has been a veteran of nearly all those wars listed above.
Don’t tell me Orcs aren’t cut out for war.
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Those forsaken were not harmless. They were leaders of the forsaken with knowledge of the Undercity’s defenses. Someone like Genn could have used that knowledge to harm the Forsaken.
Yes, killing your own soldiers is sometimes the right decision. If you have infantry holding a line and they get overrun, you are not doing something wrong by using your artillery to shell that position. Thinking this is some kind of “war crime” is just naive.
I seriously don’t get the hate-on that you people have for Sylvanas.
Let’s talk about the first and second wars. First war: orcs are under the influence of the Legion. They abandon their foolish “honor.” They win.
Second war: Doomhammer kills Blackhand and the Shadow Council because they are “dishonorable.” Doomhammer proceeds to try to wage a war by the rules of “honor” and loses. His people are rounded up into camps and his homeworld is shattered. Good job Doomhammer. I’m sure all the orcs who died or spent the next few decades languishing in Alliance internment camps are thankful that you got to keep your warm fuzzy feeling. I hope Saurfang is as successful.
Orcs are not cut out for war. They are cut out for small scale tribal conflicts. The only time they have been successful was when following someone “dishonorable.”
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Well by this kind of logic everything the scourge and arthas did was good and honrable for long as they won or tgat being humaine and trying not to cause pointless suffering is silly for long as you win. Ot really seems tgat your honor is just defined by if they won or not. I guess the blood elves deserved to have their capitol destroyed and most of their popukation wiped out after all arthas won and winning is all that matters
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Simple the current writers, weren’t working in Blizzard when MoP was released, don’t be surprised if the next expansion is WoD 2.0 with the Iron Scourge and Arthas taking the place of Gromm including the: AZEROTH IS FREE!!!
Lmao
THRALL
THRALL
THRALL
THRALL
THRALL
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Scream all you want, but Thall did what? Gathered the Orcs and ran away to another continent. Fought under the leadership of the Night Elves to help them defeat Archimonde. Let Garrosh fight the Lich King for him. So go ahead and yell
THRALL
THRALL
THRALL
Until you’re blue in the face. You’re only embarrassing yourself by acting like a child on a video game forum.
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What’s Genn going to do? Interrogate them without Anduin’s permission or knowledge?
Not when there are better alternatives like having those troops fall back and then artillery shell the position.
It is a War crime, because it wasn’t voluntary suicide.
Its not even hate, it’s profound disappointment.
When i think of Sylvanas, it was this cautious, considerate, strategist who took every precaution to ensure victory and to ensure her people prosper. A freedom fighter with good intentions, but with less than ideal ways to go about them.
Sylvanas right now is just all the bad qualities and none of the good. She doesn’t care about her people, she’s reckless and inconsiderate, she’s overconfident in a war she’s losing, and she’s putting herself into an unwindable situation by pissing off both her allies and enemies and becoming evil beyond redemption. There’s nothing to actually like.
And i seriously don’t get the hate-on that you people have for the concept of “honor”. Is fighting for something so virtuous such a bad thing? We’ve been doing it for years, yet only now when the character of Sylvanas has dug herself into such a deep hole for herself does it become such a problem.
I mean, does winning matter that much that you’d be fine to do it in service to the Legion? To sell yourself as a slave for evil?
He loses because the dishonorable people he still courted, acted dishonorably in abandoning him at their final siege for Lordaeron costing them the entire war. If anything, “ruthlessness” is what lost them the war.
They’re lucky the Alliance didn’t just execute them all and Draenor was destroyed by honorless people.
All the orcs languishing in interment camps were all essentially murderers who deserved a worse fate than incarceration. Orgrim wanted to bring the Orcs back from the brink before more extreme measures actually did need to be taken by the Alliance or anyone else who threatened them.
Orcish honor is the only thing that gives them a reason for living, a purpose to fight, without it what do they have?
Thrall worked wonders for the Orcs. He gave them a purpose, a home, as well as their shamanistic culture back.
If following dishonorable people was the rule for Orcs, then Thrall was not only the exception but a new rule in and of itself.
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[quote=“Traci-barthilas, post:34, topic:184282”]
She killed a bunch of Forsaken civilians simply because they wanted to mend fences with their living relatives. She also killed the only living heir to the throne Lordaeron at the same time who was technically the Forsaken’s rightful queen. [/quote]
Actually, she allowed the meeting. She killed them because she felt threatened when several betrayed her, and being Sylvanas went instantly to overkill. Kind of her thing. Also, in no way is Callia the Forsaken’s rightful queen. Lordaeron is dead, and the Forsaken started a new nation on its ruins. Callia is not Forsaken, and certainly can’t claim to rule them.
She raised their mindless skeletons. She saw them as resources in a desperate situation. I have problems with many things Sylvanas has done, but this is not one of them.
Yeah, I think she’s the likely culprit here. That’s pretty bad. And, frankly, kind of dumb.
She has directly stated that she doesn’t think honour is worth dying for. Again, I agree. I note that you are prioritizing “honourable warfare” as being a priority for “her people,” but “her people” are more than Tauren and Orcs…and apparently even many of them agree with her ruthless pragmatism.
She’s definitely a villain, but she’s not the same as Garrosh. Garrosh was an orc supremacist who wanted the other races either dead or subservient, except the tauren. He liked the tauren. Sylvanas wants victory at all costs and doesn’t care who she hurts to get there. Garrosh was fundamentally an idealist. Sylvanas is fundamentally a pragmatist.
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"It’s well understood that the orcs and tauren take the raising of their dead, especially those who died in honorable combat, to be a massive offense.
Buuuut since they didn’t write it down and put it on a public post board, we get to pretend it doesn’t count."
Also, why is it always blood elf paladins who support the most heinous things?
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Blood Knights were literally sold to the playerbase as light-sucking vampires. It’s not their fault that Blizzard did a 180 and made them something different later on.
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I think it is mostly just him seen him around seems to be the kind where only the results matter or rather that only cares if they win morals mean nothing.
“Later on” being the end of BC. I doubt that every blood elf paladin player claiming that Sylvanas’ “”“pragmatic”"" actions are justified have been around since then.
That one might be, but not all- And there is a pattern in it.
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I wouldnt know i just know him and he is a fan of victory through any means no matter how morally bankrupt or evil they are.
And thank god for that.
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Not quite—they were sold as HEAVY METAL SUBJUGATORS of the Light, BENDING it to their WILL! The “vampire” part was for mana.
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They literally sucked the Light directly out of M’uru. The vampire analogy is fine.
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‘‘Later on’’ as in the same expansion with an actual good reason.
I mean it’s not a sudden retcon but part of their development back in the BC
Ooh, forgot about that. So they were sucking AND bending it. Double the metal!
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This is just the best example I’ve seen yet of people doing these amazing feats of mental gymnastics to defend Sylvanas simply because they like her for whatever reason and won’t let themselves admit that her recent actions are not only stupid but uncharacteristically stupid. Once again it’s also done with the same heartless tone that I’ve seen countless times before where apparently nothing else in the entire universe matters except a tactical advantage. Only warmongers think that way and not intelligent leaders because there are always consequences.
You defended killing civilians and many other Sylvanas supporters do as well. There’s nothing else to say after that; You’ve practically excused yourself from civil discussion, civil debate, and the foundation of what civil societies function on.
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