I understand the argument that player power should not be attached to covenants. However, it seems unfeasible to detach the specific power from the covenant without switching the covenant along with it. Thus, there are two options:
(1) Covenants are not easily swappable;
(2) Covenants are easily swappable.
I enjoy the prospect of choice and sacrifice. Also, it appears that conduits and ledgendaries are going to play much more of a performance factor than covenant abilities will anyway. As long as Blizzard keeps the performance difference between covenants sub %10 (which is relatively doable imo), it will not make a significant difference to anyone outside of high-end content competitors.
I also think how the pug meta will be affected is overstated. There are too many other factors that affect performance and covenant choice plays too trivial a role in it to really matter (again, as long as blizzard keeps impact of covenant abilities relatively lower and variance between them small). It is much more likely that the pug meta will revolve around class/spec (like it always has) rather than class/spec/covenant.
Why? I understand that Blizz doesn’t want to but why couldn’t we get them from a neutral party?
For example, tie them to Oribos. Just toss a NPC from each covenant into a room and give them a line or two about sharing their power because they’re concerned with the bigger picture. You talk to one of them to get the abilities and you pick the covenants the same way you already do.
This is probably true. I doubt one more thread is going to change anyone’s minds regardless of their take.
I think the restrictions end up impacting more casuals than top 1%er’s.
I also have seen many people on the RP side of the issue voice that they wouldn’t be negatively impacted by having covenants be easily swappable because they don’t lose anything. Which makes sense - because they’re not really gaining anything for the restrictions being in place.
Your prospect of choice and sacrifice is still attainable in a flexible system. And as RPers have put it, which I agree, choosing to make that sacrifice and be loyal means more when you don’t have to.
Because of how the Abilities and Soulbinds interact, has been my take. If you detach Soulbinds from the Covenants, you can wind up with a noob trap situation where your Soulbinds can’t affect your ability at all, so you can really only use the Soulbinds associated with that Covenant anyway. At that point, you might as well just be able to swap Covenants wholesale. Just my take.
I think we’ll all wind up about equally impacted, honestly, good or ill.
I’m not sure I remember anyone saying what you go on to say on an RP side. I do find it strange how many people speak for the RPers on this, though, as opposed to those people speaking for themselves. Not saying you’re right or wrong, just an observation.
Conduits should be filling this role. Those should be basically swappable at will. They’re not, and hopefully Blizz gets their head out of their butt on that one, but your Covenant choice shouldn’t be defining your spec.
For that idea to work, and I am not suggesting that it is an undesirable idea, Blizzard would have fundamentally redesign the concept behind them. The idea of a “covenant” (a contract, bind, etc) and an accompanying covenant ability makes sense that they are inseparable. To make the power freely swappable, like the way you suggested, does not serve the idea of a “covenant” and an a power that comes from that covenant. Effectively, for it to work conceptually, Blizzard would have to re-brand the “covenant ability” as something else, i.e. shadowlands’ powers or something neutral.
My argument is that it wouldn’t make sense thematically and conceptually (unless Blizzard changed it).
Alternatively, just have the Soulbinds tie to the ability. Basically, each character you soulbind to would have four “trees”, one for each ability. You only get to see the one that applies. You could redo the wording/imagery to match the covenant or just make it so their power is manifested through your ability.
While I don’t think freely/easily swapping the powers would be a bad thing, that wasn’t my suggestion. My suggestion was to decouple Covenant choice from player power.
How swappable or not they would be is a separate issue. You could make them both easy, both hard, or one easy and the other hard.
Personally I think they should lock you into whatever covenant you pick, permanently.
Or, at the very least, joining a covenant and then swapping it should make the covenant you’re leaving hostile to you and unwilling to take you back. You joined their cause and then betrayed their trust just so you could pull an extra 1% on the damage meters, you dont deserve their help again.
People really need to learn to make their choices and stand by them.
I think it would work if they do it right Having a specialty, like utility, single target, or AoE, etc., as a sub-set of a class sounds really cool and allows people to build their characters the way they want.
But the sad truth is based on Blizzard’s recent track history with balancing semi-complex systems I lack confidence they’ll be able to pull it off. I see there being a clear cut best Covenant for each class and spec. I don’t think there’s going to be much customization here if people truly care about their character’s performance.
I agree with you. Covenant abilities should not be there to “complete” a spec or class. However, I do not think Blizzard is attempting to do that with Covenant abilities. If you look at the covenant abilities, most of them are not spec or class defining, some have long cool downs, and are unlikely to have a high impact on overall performance, rotation, or round out a spec. That is my opinion and if a covenant ability does, in fact, round out a spec or is too integral in its viability, that is a fundamental problem.
That’s fair, and I was going to mention that possibility but got lazy.
If you do that, you wind up with a weird thematic where you’re Kyrian with Necrolord followers/soulbinds. I’d rather not lose that follower thematic-- if I had to choose, I’d much rather have the Covenants be entirely swappable than any of the middlegrounds people like to put out.
More role than spec afaik. At least for monk, all the abilities are basically the same, with some tweaks between our roles. Could be different for other classes, I don’t dig that hard into stuff I don’t play.
I’m not sure these things are possible to coexist. Is there a person that’s so casual that they don’t have time to do a Covenant grind, but also invested enough that following meta shifts is that important to them? If you do the content that requires you to min/max, I’m pretty sure you can manage to do whatever is required to chase the meta. I’m not that person, though, so maybe they can speak for themselves. If it’s you, I’d love to hear how balance shifts affect your irregular playing style.
It’s not about whether or not the RPer benefits from it or not.
It’s the principle of the matter: Choices should have weight, and consequence, otherwise they arent really choices at all, they’re just suggestions.
A character is defined by restrictions just as much as by freedoms. We should not be looking at covenant abilities as “my build is incomplete without this”, we should be looking at them as a bonus on top of our already complete character build. They should be beneficial but not a core element of any rotation, and honestly with them all being on relatively long cooldowns they wont be. You wont rely on covenant abilities as much as everyone here seems to think.
I apologize for the improper characterization. However, my point stands that decoupling the powers from the covenants would require a re-branding of the abilities to make sense thematically and conceptually. This is of course my opinion, and thematic consistency is not of the highest priority in all regards.
That’s… Fair? Mage is wonky enough to me that when I do play my mage alt I prefer to dig down onto one spec, but I’m not you.
You will get three soulbind trees, though, so you should be able to customize them per spec if that’s how you like to play. I’m also unsure if Conduits will carry over or change on a spec-by-spec basis.
Edit:
Thanks for the link! I disagree with that person on a conceptual level; they’re unaffected by whether the Covenants are locked, and an empathetic “but people could feel bad” stance isn’t an appropriate one. They also present the idea that a soft lock and commitment is strictly bad. I disagree. I’d happily discuss the specifics with you here, but I feel like I’d be arguing in bad faith if I responded strictly to their linked post in a different thread.
The problem with restrictions like that in an MMORPG with challenging and varying types of content is that it turns into a “what do the sims/websites/pro’s say is best” - which ultimately removes any kind of personal choice, experimentation, meaning and uniqueness.
In a flexible system, players that value restriction can still choose to do so, just like many players do today. For others, consequences still exist, just on a content by content basis.
In a restrictive system, the choices end up being punishing - not necessarily meaningful. That’s not a good way to add value and fun to a game.
Having a specialty, like utility, single target, or AoE, etc., as a sub-set of a class sounds really cool and allows people to build their characters the way they want.