Hot Take: Covenants should not be easily swappable

[Oasis-malygos]

I think we can all agree on this at least.

[Matthiask-stormrage (Matthiask)]

I think your main assertion is wrong. I would be very easy to make two new “talent” rows that have the covenant abilities on them instead of tying them to the choice that players make.

The abilities are the most unbalanceable parts of covenants. The soulbinds and conduits alone would be a much smaller task to balance.

That being said once you remove the abilities from the choice I would be in-favor of not being able to easily switch covenants.

My main fear if they make covenants easily switchable is that players will then be tasked to level multiple covenants at once if they want to do multiple forms of content. A similar problem to the current one.

[Oasis-malygos]

@Voomboompow-stormreaver

@Oasis-malygos

It’s the principle of the matter: Choices should have weight, and consequence, otherwise they arent really choices at all, they’re just suggestions.

The problem with restrictions like that in an MMORPG with challenging and varying types of content is that it turns into a “what do the sims/websites/pro’s say is best” - which ultimately removes any kind of personal choice, experimentation, meaning and uniqueness.

In a flexible system, players that value restriction can still choose to do so, just like many players do today. For others, consequences still exist, just on a content by content basis.

Yes, ultimately the problem is the community/players and their astronomical ego that demands having the best of the best in every situation, and to hell with sensible restrictions that limit their freedom.

If people would just stop caring about being ‘the best’ this wouldn’t be an issue. Funny thing is, no matter what abilities or min-maxing guide they follow, 99% wont ever be ‘the best’, and it’s futile to base your enjoyment of a game around that.

[Voomboompow-stormreaver]

@Oasis-malygos

Yes, ultimately the problem is the community/players and their astronomical ego that demands having the best of the best in every situation, and to hell with sensible restrictions that limit their freedom.

If people would just stop caring about being ‘the best’ this wouldn’t be an issue. Funny thing is, no matter what abilities or min-maxing guide they follow, 99% wont ever be ‘the best’, and it’s futile to base your enjoyment of a game around that.

Not true. Min/maxing does influence some players. But for many other players, the ability to have fun and experiment is taken away with the restrictions. For these players it’s not about being the best and optimizing. It’s just about playing around and having fun.

In a single player RPG when you’re trying to add a reason to play the game over and over again - a restrictive system has it’s purpose. But in an MMORPG - it ends up being more negative to many people. All when the restrictions can easily be self-imposed.

[Life-bleeding-hollow]

@Thòrhammer-proudmoore

be loyal means more when you don’t have to

This.
Forced loyalty isn’t loyalty.
It’s servitude.

[Sephrinx-blaumeux]

@Ndog-vashj

Just my thoughts. What do you guys think?

I think you’re wrong and I disagree with everything you said.

[Karat-anubarak (Karat)]

@Oasis-malygos

It’s the principle of the matter: Choices should have weight, and consequence, otherwise they arent really choices at all, they’re just suggestions.

A character is defined by restrictions just as much as by freedoms. We should not be looking at covenant abilities as “my build is incomplete without this”, we should be looking at them as a bonus on top of our already complete character build.

If a choice has weight then the benefits of that choice isn’t just a bonus; that’s what gives it weight.

@Oasis-malygos

They should be beneficial but not a core element of any rotation, and honestly with them all being on relatively long cooldowns they wont be.

It wouldn’t be the first time builds revolve around CDs. BoS is a 2-minute CD and one of the two main Frost builds revolves around it (and the better one until you’re geared enough).

@Ndog-vashj

However, my point stands that decoupling the powers from the covenants would require a re-branding of the abilities to make sense thematically and conceptually.

If they held that concern, I’m sure they could come up with rebranding for the other covenants. For example, if you go with the Maldraxxis shield but Kyrian covenant, they could change it to some kind of holy barrier while Night Fae would could have wood and bark and Venthyr would be blood.

@Samtaya-wyrmrest-accord

If you do that, you wind up with a weird thematic where you’re Kyrian with Necrolord followers/soulbinds. I’d rather not lose that follower thematic-- if I had to choose, I’d much rather have the Covenants be entirely swappable than any of the middlegrounds people like to put out.

As I said above, they could, if they so desired, simply rebrand the abilities. They’ve done it in the past with some, such as Bloodlust/Herism. It’s be more work than that but they could do the same with the abilities/soulbinds.

Personally, I think decoupling the power is more important than making them swapable. It’d let people choose their covenants on their own merits without having to worry about the ability that comes with it. Even if you ignore min/maxing like Blizz wants, a choice between an interesting covenant with a boring ability and a boring covenant with an interesting isn’t a good one.

[Ndog-vashj]

@Matthiask-stormrage

My main fear if they make covenants easily switchable is that players will then be tasked to level multiple covenants at once if they want to do multiple forms of content. A similar problem to the current one.

I had not thought of this but yes, I agree.

[Samtaya-wyrmrest-accord]

@Voomboompow-stormreaver

But for many other players, the ability to have fun and experiment is taken away with the restrictions. For these players it’s not about being the best and optimizing. It’s just about playing around and having fun.

I had a lot of fun deciding what Covenant I liked best for my monk, here. I also had fun deciding what Covenants looked the most interesting for my DK, DH, and Pally alts. “Fun” is different for different people, and I don’t think one person’s definition of fun should be the deciding factor.

I also really don’t like arguments centered around a vague group of people that can hold whatever opinions you decide they have.

[Matthiask-stormrage (Matthiask)]

It gets even worse when you realize your gains in all that are capped in a week.

[Voomboompow-stormreaver]

@Samtaya-wyrmrest-accord

I had a lot of fun deciding what Covenant I liked best for my monk, here. I also had fun deciding what Covenants looked the most interesting for my DK, DH, and Pally alts. “Fun” is different for different people, and I don’t think one person’s definition of fun should be the deciding factor.

I also really don’t like arguments centered around a vague group of people that can hold whatever opinions you decide they have.

The point is that giving people options doesn’t prohibit you from making a choice that’s valuable to you.

But restricting options does prohibit others from making choices that are valuable to them.

In the flexible system, everyone can win; aside from those that enjoy seeing others be punished.

[Samtaya-wyrmrest-accord]

@Voomboompow-stormreaver

The point is that giving people options doesn’t prohibit you from making a choice that’s valuable to you.

It doesn’t prohibit it, no, but it does devalue it significantly.

@Voomboompow-stormreaver

In the flexible system, everyone can win; aside from those that enjoy seeing others be punished.

I disagree. It has nothing to do with punishment or spite. I don’t want anyone to feel punished for their decisions.

In the current system, how many dead talents do you have? How many choices can you make that aren’t just “not ideal”, but actually detrimental and wrong because of the power differential on the tier?

The first example that springs to my mind is Vengeance DH and Spirit Bomb. They are required to take that talent-- everything else on the row is dead. Why? Because nothing competes with it. Do you think that will ever get fixed?

Answering my own question: No, it won’t. It doesn’t feel bad to pick anything else, because you’ll quickly realize that you made the wrong decision, and it costs nothing to fix. You’re not committed to anything. Doesn’t matter. Change it out as soon as you hit an inn, or a capital, or just pop a Tome.

Do you think Covenants should be the same as Talents? Where Blizzard can safely ignore everything, as long as there’s one viable choice that everyone will be taking? Where the players have no investment in their decisions because they don’t actually have any meaning, and it only costs, what, a few gold to unmake that decision?

I like the idea of investment because of everything it entails, on every level. I like the flavor aspects. I like the very idea of commitment. I like the different experiences I’ll be able to get on different characters. I like the idea that Blizzard will not be allowed to ignore Covenants that underperform so badly that they are outright unviable.

I’m not interested in people being punished, at all.

[Karat-anubarak (Karat)]

@Samtaya-wyrmrest-accord

I like the idea that Blizzard will not be allowed to ignore Covenants that underperform so badly that they are outright unviable.

The idea that Blizz won’t be able to ignore something that’s underperforming seems extremely naive. There have been underperforming specs since WoW’s inception. If I’m remembering it correctly, they intentionally gutted a Warlock spec during Warlords and just let it rot because they decided too many people were using it and they didn’t feel like fixing it until Legion.

[Samtaya-wyrmrest-accord]

@Karat-anubarak

The idea that Blizz won’t be able to ignore something that’s underperforming seems extremely naive.

My hope would be that the forums would be burning down worse than they are right now. I would also hope that point is where they fall back to Plan B, after they’ve already failed and there’s an uproar, not before.

Don’t mistake a hope with faith: I don’t actually trust Blizzard to succeed at any of this. I am happy to let them try, though.

[Coya-moon-guard]

I’d agree with you if it weren’t for the fact that I both PvP AND PvE.
What if I choose a covenant that is good for PvP but bad for PvE and vice versa?
What If I want to play a different spec for these things?
Welp, good thing I have two hunters.
To cover all bases possible, I should just level 4 more hunters, right?
I guess that solves the problem? But it shouldn’t be that way.

[Voomboompow-stormreaver]

@Samtaya-wyrmrest-accord

It doesn’t prohibit it, no, but it does devalue it significantly.

That’s on you. Meaning, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder. If you value restriction - then restrict yourself. The value is there if you want it.

@Samtaya-wyrmrest-accord

In the current system, how many dead talents do you have? How many choices can you make that aren’t just “not ideal”, but actually detrimental and wrong because of the power differential on the tier?

None. Casuals don’t care about “not ideal” because they don’t do content that requires optimization. All talents are viable to them because they have the option and freedom to choose for reasons that don’t have to involve performance.

@Samtaya-wyrmrest-accord

Do you think Covenants should be the same as Talents? Where Blizzard can safely ignore everything, as long as there’s one viable choice that everyone will be taking? Where the players have no investment in their decisions because they don’t actually have any meaning, and it only costs, what, a few gold to unmake that decision?

I actually think it should be both. I think Covenants should be freely swappable like talents, but I think they should be as intent on balance as they currently are. In fact, I think they should attempt to balance talents with the same rigor.

@Samtaya-wyrmrest-accord

I like the flavor aspects. I like the very idea of commitment. I like the different experiences I’ll be able to get on different characters. I like the idea that Blizzard will not be allowed to ignore Covenants that underperform so badly that they are outright unviable.

You can still do all of this in a flexible system.

Like the RPer above said - they lose nothing for the system being flexible. Objectively - nothing in relation to gameplay changes.

[Karat-anubarak (Karat)]

@Samtaya-wyrmrest-accord

Don’t mistake a hope with faith: I don’t actually trust Blizzard to succeed at any of this. I am happy to let them try, though.

So, if I’m understanding you correctly, you want Blizz to try to fly the metaphorical plane with all of us on it as is even though you’re pretty sure they’re going to crash? What happened to not wanting people to feel punished for their decisions? Is it OK as long as they might only suffer for a bit?

[Silinya-lightbringer]

@Ndog-vashj

I enjoy the prospect of choice and sacrifice.

I can’t think of any way making sacrifices for Ion would feel good.

@Samtaya-wyrmrest-accord

I think we’ll all wind up about equally impacted, honestly, good or ill.

Then we will all go down together.

@Karat-anubarak

Is it OK as long as they might only suffer for a bit?

Nobody’s going to suffer for long. This is an entertainment product. When people find it no longer entertaining, they uninstall.

[Voxplaga-ravencrest (Voxplaga)]

@Ndog-vashj

it seems unfeasible to detach the specific power from the covenant without switching the covenant along with it.

How so? Make the abilities a row or two of talents, make the soulbinds a MoP glyph/essence type of system, where they switch depending on what talent you are using (since soulbinds mod the abilities a bit), and unlock legendaries from covenants. Easy.

[Harlerl-silvermoon]

I 100% agree, they also shouldn’t be tied to player power. I would love just a purely RPG system in the game. we already have gear to gain power. the more systems they add the more screwed up it always gets