Horde's coolest themes, best credit and appeals will go to the Alliance

Lore Story Forum
101

Sure they do. The last time there was outright fighting, in BfA, several of the Alliance Pantheon were in action. Jaina brought her flying ship to the Battle of Lordaeron and somehow didn’t wipe out the entire Horde singlehandedly, for example. And at that point in her story, she definitely wanted to—you’re not going to convince me that her “kid gloves” were on.

There are plenty of grounds. A while ago, the story started focusing exclusively on the very top tier of characters—the faction leaders and occasionally their seconds-in-command, like Shandris. It would be pretty easy to bring out the people a level or two below that, like the forgotten nobles of Stormwind and even the commoners, and show that they don’t agree with all the choices made by the Pantheon. The nobles and commoners aren’t superpowered, but they have numbers on their side.

My favorite idea is a hotshot young military commander. A “Tywin Lannister” type politician who plays the long game has also been suggested.

Spin, propaganda, and tapping into existing discontent with current leadership that (some) people have been suppressing until a leader comes along and gives them permission to voice it.

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102

They could have treated it the same like they did with Azurathel but we all know the Horde plot is just the afterthought and I am so damm tired.

103

That’s one of those ongoing things with Bliz where characters are exactly as powerful as the plot dictates.

See also Zul burning down Stormwind but getting dumpstered by us idiots.

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104

A young member of the house of nobles sounds like the best option. My Game of Thrones knowledge is limited so I don’t know much about Tywin beyond a few lines of dialogue. Just based on that it could make for interesting character.

As an example, a young heir to one of Stormwind’s Noble families with strong ties to the military leads an expedition into the Hillsbrad Foothills with the goal of resettling the region and putting it back into order. This heir, proceeds to level Durnhold keep, rebuild Southshore, and reclaim much of the coastline for the Alliance. The problem comes when he leads his forces North to Hillsbrad where he proceeds force every Forsaken he finds into fields and then sets those fields on fire. He is reprimanded by the Alliance leadership but also praised by many civilians who see his actions as not only pragmatic but just.

This noble then leverages that popular support to become one of the most powerful people in Stormwind where he proves to be every bit as good at politics as warfare. In the event that Anduin returns to Stormwind this heir would choose to not oppose him directly but instead to place himself more as a loyal opposition. In fact, he could actually be loyal to Anduin as he could take actions he believed were necessary to preserve Stormwind and the crown. Those actions would often be more pragmatic and he would see war with the Horde to be in the Alliances best interests.

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105

A bigger subset of Horde fans more so then the Alliance ever had it. Also, the entire theme of the Alliance is “lawful good overdrives” while the Horde has always been morally ambiguous at best, outright evil at worse.

If you want they can always turn the Horde into pure good guys and ditch things like use of the plague/the clearly vengeance filled Geya’rah/enjoying things like cannibalism etc. Also, if you think its so “enjoyable” to be villains why not keep arguing for the Horde to continue its path.

You want the Horde to be Villains go ahead, don’t touch the Alliance. It took almost two decades to deal with the stain that is Arthas and Daelin’s failings. I’d rather not spend another decade of warcraft doing so with Turaylon or Yrel.

What beefed them up was having overpowered raid racials for too long and now Blizzard will not do the reverse and even if they did so, WoW is not exactly a game that is gaining enough new players to make it compelling enough for people to switch.

106

Of course he kid gloves were on. We’ve seen she has the ability to destroy Orgrimmar with a tsunami of water elementals. In the case of the attack on the Undercity, unleashing all hell would’ve also meant Alliance casualties, which she DOESN’T want.

Commoners discontent with the leadership with numbers on their side, hrmn? Where have I heard that one before… Oh right, the Defias. What happened to them again? Got beaten down twice and then made peace?

Okay, but where are these characters right now?

My point is this: they don’t exist. When Blizzard fails to seed in a story properly, it’s crap. Just look at Shadowlands. For an expansion to drop and suddenly you have Lywin Tannister in Stormwind starting a war by throwing around lots of gold and songs about the Canes of Rastamere is going to feel awful and forced.

The current leadership are borderline worshiped by their people. Turalyon was a monumentally popular choice amongst the people of Stormwind because he’s such a storied hero. Alleria is the first elf to master the Void. Tyrande is the living embodiment of her Goddess, and Malfurion surpassed even Ysera in Druidic potential years ago. Velen has led his people for 10,000 years. The Kul Tiran’s issues with Jaina were resolved during BFA.

For this plot to work, you’d have to retcon so much of what’s been established.

107

I have only partially read tbhrough the thread since I could only stomach so much partisan belly aching when its becoming more clear the Blizz wants to move away from the faction Storyline and focus more on “Heroic” figures that use the Factions as a basis instead of their defining feature.

That being said i would like to see some more political complexities in the Alliance since their power structure hasn’t had nearly as much light shown on it as the Horde Council has in these past expansions.

Questions of how much power does Anduin truly have as the High King of the Alliance of Stormwind, does Turalyon have a group of support arguing for his claiming of the throne of High King being a hero of the Wars and more experienced, what has Miora been up to and are the Dark Irons really just spicy dwarves now or is there a growing rebellion once again, has Gelbin done anything since the Mechagnomes joined the Alliance?

The calls for a more aggressive Alliance in any format can’t be just forced, they need to start with small stories of bickering. With Anduin’s absence they have opened the possibility for a bid at the High King throne. Personally I’m sort of tired of Blizzard’s hamfisted attempts at making compelling “both sides” narratives and prefer if they keep to more over arching threats with the Faction friction being a seasoning and not the main dish.

Final unrelated thought, bring the Amani home to the Horde. You showed me Zul’jin in Shadowlands and did nothing with it.

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108

I’d rather they did away with the Blue Warchief High King nonsense. At most a Supreme Allied Commander is fine, but the Alliance functioned better as a council of peers, and I think that allows for far more political complexity within the Alliance. Rather than everyone answering to only one leader, everyone has their own ambitions and moral compass.

Vanilla is a good example. While Stormwind was wrestling with the Defias Brotherhood and the Dark Horde, Ironforge was pushing into Kalimdor and other places with an imperial directive from Magni. Theramoore was trying to play peacekeeper and hold the Alliance together, while the Gnomeregan exiles were so scattered and divided that in terms of influence they barely existed at all within the Alliance and were caught up in most of Ironforge’s plots. Meanwhile the Night Elves remained aloof and isolated in an alliance of convenience while not hiding their disdain for certain practices common among their new allies.

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109

It’s an understandable desire, and the idea of having a looser coalition as compared to the more tightly knit Horde community also helps it maintain a different identity. Personally i think keeping the Alliance in this highly structured hierarchy is the path to a more complex faction where there is almost incentive for the Alliance leaders to put on honorable faces while their second in command work behind the scenes to get their jobs done. Let the spy-games commence!

Perhaps fully committing to removing Anduin from the Alliance narrative to focus on his destiny to be the Light’s special guy is the answer but then we start down the Cata Thrall path and we just redo that storyline with Blue Razzberry flavor.

110

Because saying 'here’s a member of the (criminally underdeveloped) House of Nobles who’s always been around but we just haven’t mentioned him yet", would be SO lore-breaking, as opposed to ‘AN EVIL NIPPLE MAN WAS BEHIND EVERYTHING!’, or ‘ACTUALLY THERE ARE FOUR EVIL ELEMENTAL DRAGON ASPECTS TOO!’.

Again, they just pulled out of their rear the Primalists, an entire army of people of various races who turned against their leaders for little more reason than “LOL, order bad, burn stuff!”

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111

Lore breaking, no. Poor story-telling, yes. If I wanted more poor story I’d say bring on the next Warchief so the Horde can get it’s third… fourth… fifth? Fifth soul searching expansion to figure out its identity.

And again, poor story-telling.

112

That’s not kid gloves—that’s Blizzard being inconsistent with their writing. (Also, she had the focusing iris at the time she tried to drown Orgrimmar, but honestly, the inconsistent writing is a much bigger factor.)

Commoners and nobles. The Defias didn’t have a popular, charismatic, and acclaimed noble on their side.

Presumably learning their craft. When they’re ready to make a splash, they will.

We don’t actually know that. Like I said, the story started focusing almost exclusively on the top-level characters several expansions ago. We barely ever hear what the average noble or person on the street actually thinks of the Alliance leadership. There could be talk going on behind closed doors that we don’t know about.

I think you’re just hostile to the idea.

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113

We have zero way of counting, since they won’t try it out on the Alliance side.

I didn’t say I personally think it’s enjoyable. But I’d be willfully blind if I tried to say nobody enjoys it.

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114

Regardless our quests/theme are about us being the good guys. More so then the Horde ever has. There is a reason our heroes for the most part are WC2 heroes are alive and WC 2 “Horde heroes” are all dead.

And they will likely be the minority. Regardless, if you guys are so miserable about Horde story telling so far then that seems like what will happen if the Alliance ends up villain batted. So no thanks, you want Villains? I can only hope the villain bat keeps avoiding the Alliance and hitting the Horde.

115

And surely the point would be to start sewing the seeds of a character like this now, so that in a few years they’ll rise to promience and be able to be the focus of Alliance Does Bad Stuff arc in a few years.

Maybe in the meantime give the Alliance heroes a chance to heroically sacrifice themselves, become depowered, or simply leave for some reason, in order to solve the barriers to writing interesting internal conflicts that the Alliance Leaders being the Superfriends brings.

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116

I mean, they could use clever writing to establish there’s mobs from the Alliance that did want to go full deus vult – Handfuls of those who were never satisfied (which would be more realistic too). Maybe make a splinter faction due to such discord or have a political scheme start within the Alliance’s own ranks and create some inner-strife & conflict.

The Alliance could use some inner-conflict

The argument that: “Oh the Alliance doesn’t do inner conflict. We’re the epitome of unification to overcome conflicts & nothing else!” — or something along those lines, just becomes a boring concept. lol

As someone else once said in another thread:

9 Likes
117

Alliance bias is the reason for that. And Blizzard especially Metzen having the urge to throw all Horde Spotlight on Thrall just because he was raised by humans.

118

A more morally grey alliance where their actions are seen as horrendous by the horde but seen as justifiable by the alliance is what I think most people want.

And less Lawful Stupid Good. Which is not nearly as fun as some people here like to claim it is

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119

Nah. Im tired of ignorant fans thinking Anduin the literal “king” of the Alliance because there hasn’t been any official HK lore since MoP when they invented it, as much as im tired of Blizzard pretending that the organization is an integrated empire. The Alliance needs to behave like an alliance of nations again, not subjects of Stormwindian nepo-babies. All the title does is keeps the spotlight on the Wrynns at the expense of others.

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120

I’m not hostile to the idea of the Alliance being the aggressors in a faction conflict. Far from it, I think it’d give the Alliance some depth for a change, although I don’t envy Horde players having to deal with being extremely incompetent and losing major cities and suffering genocide and what not.

My issue is, the Alliance currently is not set up in a way that enables this sort of story. There’s half a dozen different characters whom would end another war before it began. Those characters need to be removed before a new warmonger can rise to power.

Warcraft is very much the sort of setting where power derived from wealth or influence is weak. Those whom rule wield very tangible power in the forms of magic, the light, druidism, etc… It doesn’t matter how rich you are when there’s a mage whom can portal into your pleasure palace and drive you out of it, as happened with Gallywix.

So, this hypothetical charismatic noble, this Lywin Tannister if you will, would need to be an OP Mage/Paladin/Priest/Druid/whatever, to begin with. Now, if such a powerful character exists, Blizzard has a very uncomfortable question to answer: Where has he been all this time? Why wasn’t he helping us during Legion? Why wasn’t he fighting the Horde during BFA? Most of these classes that give characters real power are not the sort you master overnight. Even Jaina who was a prodigy didn’t get to the point she could repair and lift sunken vessels and use them to frost-bombard Sylvanas’ blight until recently. Turalyon is over 1,000 years old and imbued with the Light, Alleria studied the void for hundreds of years, and ate the heart of a dark Naaru, Malfurion, Tyrande, Velen, all over 10K (Velen well over).

In short, by the setting’s own lore, just having an OP mage/priest/paladin/druid/whatever pop up overnight is absurd.

Even then you’d STILL have to get rid of over half the roster of Alliance characters (and that’s not even touching on Anduin who is apparently a messiah in Stormwind and for most of the Alliance somehow).