Oh, my bad. I didn’t mean to imply that you specifically were taking a pro-genocide stance, if that’s how I came off.
Oh, I didn’t think you were, don’t worry. Just upon rereading my stuff it sounded like I might have made it sound like the camps were good.
Also i thought your character was a Jungle Troll until I saw the word Tauren…That mask I swear XD
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Yeah, I used to be a troll before tauren mages became an option. Took 15 years for me to finally get a race/class combo I wanted to main. The wait was frustrating.
The avatar PoV for trolls is closer up so when I wore the mask, it looked like my face was pushed up against the camera and it always weirded people out, haha.
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Because the entire internment camp situation is loaded because people will project IRL onto it, which I understand on one hand but also see why it’s def not meant to be compared directly to it on the other. Acknowledging it at all is difficult.
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Valeclaw.
Night elves are not in the horde.
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I mean I dont think the game considers it a “wrongdoing”. The Alliance had no options but to imprison the orcs that nearly caused the genocide of the world.
Having said that, Varian does consider it an impractical option in regards to the modern Horde considering you can’t put half the planet in an interment camp.
It specifically states AMANI. Which is specially about the trolls wars. Ie, the high elves.
What I think is worse is that the story took a cowardly way out by retconning Genn’s motivations into him leaving the alliance over heavy taxation, instead of him throwing a fit about keeping the orcs alive at all. So even if it did get brought up, I’m positive it’d be a “it’s not my fault, we couldn’t afford it. I’m a good person 
”.
It undercuts the whole premise that players on both factions can play the hero if the alliance’s NPCs all get polished up to the point where you can’t feel justified fighting any of them in a faction war expansion.
Edit:
To clarify a bit, when I bring up the internment camps, I’m mainly focusing on the abuses that went on inside them. I know that the WC2 alliance was (partially) trying to keep them alive and Terenas specifically hoped to rehabilitate them, but what actually went on was still a crime of negligence since keeping them locked up without abusing them was still an option.
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I always read it as hand in hand tbh. Keeping the orcs alive was punishing his people with high taxes to pay for their contributions to the camps, when he didn’t even think they were entitled to being given those resources. Genn is fairly consistently written to be flawed- him having motivations, even understandable ones, don’t erase that. Only time they really did was when Christie Golden had him warm up to Forsaken at all, which is a point i think most alliance people and character never should.
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Tauren Mage ftw!
Yeah its a tough subject.
As for the Amani, people forget the High Elves and Trolls have been fighting since '97. But the humans did boom them
Yeah but given the Elves taught them magic just so they could do it, it’s more on them imo. Not that humans werent looking to benefit, of course they were. It’s not like the Amani or the Zandalari backing them werent either, even if humans had been in these lands for ages. And there’s evidence in chronicles that humanity was there before the Amani anyways, given Tyr lead them south and fought Kith’ix first, and the troll empire didnt form until they woke him from under Zandalar, then split when the amani chased him north to modern Zul’aman. So we don’t -really- know if it’s even fair to claim who was here first.
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Well the thing is the ones that caused the most abuse, those who were loyal to Blackmoore/himself are dead. And the ones who probably knew most of the abuse were Lordearon citizens. Most of the Alliance at the time had other problems they were barely dealing with.
Like rebuilding the main human nation that represents humanity in the alliance.
I also think it’s fair to point out Blackmoore planned to use them to conquer the eastern kingdoms and was actively weaponizing the fact that the alliance was splintering apart to try and turn it in his favor.
Aaaaaah that book.
The funny thing is that I don’t even think that’s a bad idea in theory, if the game was moving further away from faction conflict instead of setting up for another war. Someone coming to understand that maybe those Halloween monsters are actually still people on the inside and they shouldn’t be prejudging them on their appearance could make sense.
Y’know, maybe the werewolf might understand what that fear might be like, and the difference between being accepted or not. Instead they just had Genn warm up because he heard a forsaken cry, just in time for the horde to commit a new crime so he could have a bigotry-free reason to hate them all over again, no self-reflection needed.
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Don’t worry I am sure one day will get a thread “justifying” this as well.
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Blockquote[quote=“Fethaes-moon-guard, post:35, topic:1507718, full:true”]
There was really no other option. Give me an option that allows blood thirsty Orcs to live in a world where they just turned a City to ash and destroy many more. There were no good options, but the only reason your able to play Horde is they chose bad option number 2.
My bad with the Gilnean thing but it wasn’t an Alliance city and the Forsaken were Lordaeron to gaining a foothold would have made no sense.
[/quote]
Thats why i said a bad option and a worse option. There was no good option. But a less bad option is still a bad option.
And as for Gilneas , that was actually my bad i should have said the rest of the EK as well as a port to launch an invasion south.
One isn’t suppose to feed the trolls. But I’m board and I think a positive contribution to this question can be made.
In most of these threads. The term “justified” is never defined in any way. So let us give that a try. Let’s use the international standards for a declaration of war. Now this is complicated by the fact that nobody in WOW (or the real world these days) “declares war”. In the end, the attack by Genn on Horde forces would seem to be a turning point. And that depends on whether “war” already existed.
This is based on the western world’s view of these tings. For much of human history, people just fought until one side won or both got too tired, the powerful beat up on the weak. In that case “justified” is meaningless. I’m don’t really know much about the other standards that existed.
If there was an ongoing war, then Genn was simply prosecuting a war that already existed. Each side was “justified” in attacking east other at any time. The same thing applies to the invasion of the Night Elf lands. Since the Horde has a similar justification to continue a war that already existed.
What if there was not an ongoing war? (Which seems to hinge on whether the siege of Orgrimmar ended the last war. See below) On of the clear ways a war can start back up is an “act of war”. Genn’s attack on the forsaken would have constituted an act of war. And attack on the other side’s forces or territory is one of the clearest acts of war. Now Genn justified his actions based on the death of Varian. I don’t think that inaction can be an "act of war’. Too much a can of worms. “You didn’t supply us with the oil was wanted, prepare for war!”
The issue of the Alliance being wrong about the “Horde Treachery” is probably not an issue. Though I guess you can argue that if your justification is based on assuming facts convenient to your justification, without even making an effort to check them out, is a bridge too far. I know of no reason why both sides can’t be justified. If you accept that Horde inaction can be an act of war, then an Alliance decision to go to war can be seen as "justified’. OTOH, the Horde would be justified in going to war in response to attacks they know not to be justified based on what actually happened.
In some eras, it would be expected that the responding party would issue an ultimatum. But I don’t think they were required and, in any case, they could be alway be worded so harshly that nobody in their right mind would accept them. (“You will disband all your fighting forces and let us garrison troops in your capital”)
Now there can be an argument that one had to attack because of the other side because we had not choice. This is mostly irrelevant becausee, even if you accept it, the other side is also justified in defending against that attack. The clearest example of this is an imminent attack. The 6 day war started when Arab countries massed troops on the border. Israel launched a preemptive attack. But I don’t think one can argue that the Arabs weren’t “justified” in fighting back against the attack.
Justification for a preemptive attack are almost always controversial. Even though Isreal was look at defeat without a preemptive attack, there certainly are those who say the was not justified. Citing some long term danger or evil never really seems to work. From claims that Indians had to be eliminated because they were savages, to Russian claims that the Ukraine had to be stopped because they were fascist, they never seem to convince anyone who wasn’t already firmly on your side.
Did the siege of Orgrimar end the previous war? I believe “yes”. The existing government of the Horde was destroyed. A new government was formed with the acquiescence of the Alliance (dissent by some faction not withstanding). Presumably that ended the war. In his letter to Sylvanas, the King of the Alliance states “We are not currently at war”.
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it is also arguing in bad faith when you retroactively apply labels to factions or civilizations that pre-existed the more modern ones. For example, it is stupid to say that the first High Elves (say Dath’remar Sunstrider) are retroactively alliance characters because a descendant of his would later join the first version of ‘The Alliance’. And yet that is what the OP is trying to argue. By saying that it was the ‘Alliance’ that ‘stole’ lands from the Amani Trolls. Even though the Alliance did not exist until the second war. Thousands of years after the fact.
I never knew the Alliance of Lordaeron existed ALL the way back when the Highborne that were placed into exile (aka Dath’remar Sunstriders group). This is new information.
pretty much this. Both are tied together and not mutually exclusive. Genn (along with other leaders of the Alliance at the time, such as Thoras Trollbane) believed that the Orcs should all be put to death due to the devastation they had caused during the first and second wars. While also arguing that if the Alliance did end up imprisoning them, Gilneas shouldn’t have to share in that burden since they did not support it in the first place.
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Azshara conquered amani lands.
Does everyone forget that Sylvanas was serving the jailer at this point. The reasons she retreats from the broken shore is because she realised, he was telling the truth when Vol’jin was stabbed. It wasn’t out of some attempt to save the Horde. We already know she thought of the horde as Nothing.
She also was going after the Valkyr in stormheim for purely selfish reasons. She was actively trying to get the power to kill off as many people as possible and send their souls to the jailer on both sides. Genn’s actions probably ended up saving more horde lives ironically.