Horde vs. Ally Start point in AV

I saw Willie’s map of Alterac Valley and saw where Horde’s starting point is. (It’s not extreme South for Horde like the Ally point is extreme North on map.)
No wonder Horde seems to move across the map faster! How in the heck does Horde get a starting point cave closer to mid map??? Willie is a you tube guy btw for anyone who wants to understand the AV map bias.


No need for a new post on this, there’s tons of them with lots of discussion. Yes, horde get a considerable head start in AV.


I had no clue there was a map bias.

Blizzard addresses Classic issues with the same speed a suburban husband handles the request to clean the gutters.


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I’m not an alt. The modern meta exposes the map as broken.


In before 300 posts of the same people posting the same things as the other identical threads.

Edit #1 over half way there!
Edit #2 We did it!

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Are you the OP? We already know your thoughts on the perceived “meta” (playing the BG as it is designed to be played, against an opponent that by and large is lying down and not trying because of massive exploits being removed from them)

Don’t pretend like we don’t agree on this.

The map is broken, it’s very well known how it’s broken. It’s actually been addressed by blizzard yet they refuse to help in classic.


The map is broken in favor of the Horde. Everybody knows this, and has known it for quite some time. Anybody pretending otherwise is either delusional or some sort of apologist lying through their teeth.

Yes, the quality of Horde players in AV on any given day since premades ended is probably a bit higher because the long queues force them to try harder. But that’s not why the win rate is so lopsided.

Video in question: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H37vj5BKcAI


The “map” is fine as is (better would be 1.7 AV), the rez mechanics of SF and the caves are an issue. So no, we do not agree on the “map” itself.

Noted proponent of AV 1.12, and vigorous pusher back of any earlier AV, Zyrius.

What the… That is PRECISELY why it is so lopsided.


There is, but to say that entirely explains the horde win rate is kind of a cop out. Alliance doesn’t really care or try to win in most games, they just sit around and farm rep.


Misadventure, someone so bad at pvp they don’t understand earlier versioins have the same issues.

It’s a vicious circle that has been spiraling out of control for some time now. Differences in faction abilities, size of the PVP contingent in each faction, years of back-and-forth in retail PVP, the current players, map features, and so on have all contributed to the situation.

Over the course of 15 years alliance has tended more toward PVE and horde toward PVP. This drove the PVP queues to be longer on horde side since there are more players doing PVP, which means horde played a more defensive game to eke out better rewards over the longer wait times, which interacted with map issues to create an overly-effective winning strategy, which caused less alliance to queue, and so on.

The whole point is that to fix things we now need radical changes to effectively reset AV participation. Blizzard would have to drive those changes and they are very quiet on that front so it’s not likely to happen. Therefore, AV is a dead BG.


The map is objectively not fine. The modern meta has exposed the imbalances, and pretending they don’t exist because the meta was different 15 years ago is an intellectual tragedy.

EDIT: But we actually do agree, because my biggest issue with the 1.12 map is the respawns. Caves should be a last resort respawn. That would fix the issues at both IBGY and SPGY. That’s all they need to do.

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Oh for god’s sake stop with the “modern meta” nonsense. Horde are simply playing the damned BG the way it is supposed to be played, against an opponent who is not as invested in actually playing as designed.

Agreed about the respawn mechanics, but it really should stop being referred to as a “map” issue. It is a mechanic issue. However it would be even better if they used Korrak’s Revenge, because it would further decrease the perceived “imbalance”, due to the more populated obstacles across the middle of the map.


It doesn’t matter how many of these posts go up. Blizz is not going to change AV. The #nochanges people won. There’s hundreds of these threads and yes i agree with willi blizz will still not do anything about it. espcually when classic has about a year more before naxx is done and people get bored. Just hope if we get bc we get progressive patches and not just the nerfed last patch of bc. Bc will need changes to even work. Lets hope for Bc but improved.


The most common argument you guys fall back on is that Alliance won AV 15 years ago, so they can win today. This is a false equivalence because as I will continue to point out, the modern meta is drastically different from 15 years ago, and has yielded drastically different results.

And whatever, if you are so hellbent on debating semantics over substance, then I have an issue with the mechanics of the map. The substance of my argument remains the same no matter how you want to semantically present it. When Horde play their objectives the way the map was designed, they do not have to deal with the same obstructions Alliance has to, namely cave respawns at IBGY and rezzing at their cave at SPGY.