Most people didn’t spend hundreds of hours going over maps and lore before choosing their race.
Don’t project unrealistic expectations onto others.
It’s not. We’re all getting the same content. It’s just your opinion of that content that’s causing you to perceive it as having less value.
It’s not a canon chronicle of what actually happened. It’s a canon chronical of the Titan’s beliefs of what happened are.
Not accurate. My claim was that it’s more likely and that in turn was made in response to your original claim.
Which despite this 16 hour exchange, you have still not supplied anything beyond a canonically dubious assertion about Dark Trolls living in peace and happiness with Wild Gods on Mount Hyjal.
Anyway, I’m done discussing your factually dubious original assertion. This discussion has reached the point where you can’t seem to remember the very things you’ve posted or the level
The point you’ve missed, somehow, despite multiple explanations is that the Night Elves didn’t become a sprawling empire over night. Empires and sprawl both take time. So no, not proof.
It would be roughly equivalent to arguing that the Night Elves weren’t part of the Alliance, then posting a description of Warcraft 2. It certainly proves something was true at some other time, but it just isn’t relevant.
But not in defense of the trolls that they may, or may not like. Assuming it even requires force to evict them, which is still a claim you haven’t substantiated.
Yes yes, what was your lore support for that again? Given you’ve expanded the discussion beyond the bounds of Mount Hyjal this feels like it might be more productive ground.
I’ll just answer you straight. Dark Troll territory existed in pockets that stretched between the Well of Eternity and Mount Hyjal. It was a large trek to get from one end to the other. Now most nomadic tribes tend to stick to something like a 50 mile radius, owing to the way traveling through and harvesting from familiar territory is a safer and more productive approach, assuming nothing like a drought, war, or the 7th Cavalry Regiment displaces them.
The range radius for early agricultural societies is, as you can imagine, significantly less.
There’s a lot of assumptions here that the remaining Night Elves can somehow take the entire Horde and that is simply not true. Tyrande could not take one Nathan-boi. Night Elves got their moment to be cool in a cinematic (really just Malfurion), but you are being entirely unrealistic and delusional if you think a race that just lost most of its living members can somehow defeat the war machine that is the Horde. They aren’t a race of Super Saiyans.
Shhhh. You’ll break the delusion. Let them believe. It brings life to a barren forums.
Now I badly want to see a night elf with a ridiculous column of glowing blond hair.
All of this Night Elf super soldier talk makes me want elves to invade the Barrens and just get flattened without any tress to hide in and use.
I just realized the Nelfs never fight anywhere without trees.
Speculation here, but if we have a batte between a nelf army and troggs in an open field, who do you guys think will win?
I actually agree. I would have really liked for there to be some more examples of fights like the one in Azshara where night elves get slowly beaten back to their forests - but then actually let them look cool in their own forests, too.
I think there would be less outrage over night elf Worf-ing if they weren’t contantly, always defeated and having their face ground in the dirt when fighting in the forest and biome specifically designed to complement their natural darkvision and ambush fighting style!
I think when it comes to arguments on the forums, a lot of night elf fans come off as wanting night elves to be unstoppable super saiyans, when what they really want is for the night elves to have a more balanced win/loss ratio - but they see it as so skewed towards loss that they feel they need a ton of wins to get back to neutral (and maybe a few extra wins so they can even feel cool). And these details often don’t get expressed clearly.
They night elves will be winning… until the troggs lift up a Horde banner, and suddenly the night elves will be getting slaughtered - and suddenly their ‘army’ will be comprised of women and children instead (and not warrior women, either) - while sad music plays and Khadgar shakes his head disapprovingly at the Horde player’s camera (and it’s a cutscene, so the Horde player literally can’t do anything to stop it, but it will be mentioned to shame them in every future chapter of the story).
I personally wanted them to not be near extinct, incompetent and without a future just so the horde can have a little feeling of power, but maybe I set my expectations too high.
Why SHOULD Horde get anything?
They started a war for no good reason and almost completely genocided an entire people, the LAST thing they should be getting is rewarded for it.
I mean they already got rewarded enough for it, but they shouldn’t get the lands too now. The writers disagree though, if Night Elves are all dead might as well give their lands to the Horde now.
Which it isn’t.
No it wasn’t. You were making the claim before I got here.
I have literally cited several page numbers in Chronicle that directly disprove your claim…
Sure… But the didn’t conquer territory from Dark Trolls. The Dark Trolls and Kaldorei have shared land since forever, and much of the Land still controlled by the Kaldorei were not claimed by any Troll Tribe.
It would be if someone were to say that the Night Elves were part of the Alliance during the 2nd War…
… Given the context of your claim, it is relevant. It’s honestly sad that I have to explain this to you. You rather blatantly ignore all evidence thrown against you to preserve your headcanon rather than just admit your wrong. This is the saddest strawman I think I have ever seen.
Defending the mountain they live on is by extension defending the trolls, regardless of how they feel about them.
They weren’t evicted at all because they lived there as recent as Cata.
Furthermore, if force was not needed, then it wouldn’t be conquered land.
Chronicle Vol 1. Warcraft 3. World of Warcraft: The Magazine, Vol 2, Issue 1. Troll Lineage Chat. Speaker Ik’nal in Dazar’alor….
They weren’t nomadic, they lived in subterranean burrows.
These Burrows were found in small pockets between the Well of Eternity and Mount Hyjal. As far as we can tell, they still lived in those locations without any observable hostility. In fact, seem to be the only Neutral Troll Tribe to offer their aid to the Alliance and Horde…
Speaker Ik’nal is a dark troll in Dazar’alor from the Shadowtooth Tribe. The Shadowtooth Tribe had a camp/village in Hyjal in WC3 RoC (Twilight of the Gods). They join the player’s night elf forces when approached and more can be recruited from the camp. It’s unclear how long they lived there but they continued to until the Twilight’s Hammer decimated them in Cataclysm.
Dark trolls only appear in two other WC3 levels. Grom and the Warsong Clan can encounter one camp/village of hostile dark trolls in Ashenvale (The Spirits of Ashenvale). Tyrande and Malfurion can encounter two camps/villages of hostile dark trolls in Winterspring (The Druids Arise) but I’m hesitant to make much out of them being hostile to the night elves. At that point the Legion’s influence had already driven allies of the night elves like furbolgs, moonkin, treants, and ancients to madness and aggression (which is seen in that same level).
I’ve always thought the Orcs were WoW’s version of the Worf rule. They’re always described as immensely strong, incredibly tough due to their natural hardiness, and revolve their culture in glorious combat. However, we never really get to see them perform the way they are being sold.
I thought the nelfs got a lot of wins. War of the shifting sands, Ragnaros in Hyjal, and that Thousand Needles questline where the nelfs have a low opinion of the tauren. They even got the Night warrior thing going on. Nelf fans even get the honor of having TWO one elf armies in the form of Tyrande and Malfurion. Those characters are what Saurfang and Sylvanas had to plan around for, and whose presence could of lead to the failure of the War of Throns.
Nelfs always seem to fight the entire Horde by themselves and they do just fine. Can’t say the same for any subfaction of the Horde. The Forsaken were losing to homeless worgen and farmers. The Tauren can’t even handle roving centaurs or a dwarven expedition.
actually yes they have. Arguably the two biggest wars they were in trees were not a factor. The war of the ancients and the war of the shifting sands.
War of the Ancients the NE were more like their high elf brethen militarily. A fuedal society with an organized military designed for the open battle fields.
War of the Shifting Sand…well…its in the title. Not a lot of trees in Silithus.
If 400 posts of arguing about the transition of settlements between the Dark Trolls and Night Elves is “life”, the forums are better off dead…
Because they already have it. And there’s no logical reason for them to give it back.
Have any of these Night Elves joined the 7th Legion?
Agreed, though I’d say they get a slightly altered version of Worf-ing: They get to kick off a conflict with a lot of rawr mindless blood and thunder (often with an excessive amount of villain-batting), but then get slowly but relentlessly beaten back and then ignored by the story until it wants blood and thunder again.
If anything, I feel this makes the situation worse: We’re told we have these aboslutely ridiculous powerhouses fightin on our side, how cool! …and we lose anyway. I don’t think I need to (or want to) rehash the reception to the Night Warrior Tyrande vs Nathanos fight.
It “could have” led to the failure of the war. The night elves had a good KDR when losing, so they “could have” had a great victory if things went just a bit differently.
I, and I think a lot of other fans here, want to see one of these "could have"s become an actual “does”.
Not hear about how the night elves retook Ashenvale in a tweet. Actually play through it, get a Lorash-like quest where the player and a Sentinel sweep through an invading Horde encampment, and get a full victory in the end - not a “good job, but we have to retreat anyway”, not a “there’s still fighting, but go quest somewhere else now”, but a clear and unambiguous victory with visible results we can see in the world.
I’ll happily trade you a night elf loss in Thousand Needles, or Silithus, or the Barrens, or Azshara, or the continued neutrality of Hyjal, for a playable night elf victory in Ashenvale.
Just a question to get a bit more perspective: Would you could that Thousand Needles questline as a tauren win as well? How about the war against Ragnaros? They were half tauren, too.
Again, I think a lot of the problem is Ashenvale and its placement.
It was what many people went into the game seeing as the night elf heartland.
It was put into the game just a stone’s throw from what became the Horde capitol.
Horde capitol. 'nuff said.
But, for night elves, the situation started as “okay, Orgrimmar is really close, but it’s a competition between the majority of the night elf population, decimated by the Third War, and the majority of the orc and troll population, decimated by the camps/island evacuation and The Third War. Seems pretty evenly matched.”
But the game moved night elves’ starter zone all the way north to Teldrassil.
So, now the situation looks, to a non-night elf fan, like the GIANT HORDE CAPITOL next to the night elf zone that is the second most distant from their capitol/gameplay seat of power. And that is definitely one-sided.
But Teldrassil was some new-to-the-lore tree that’s described as one guy’s folly, next to Darkshore which is described as a place where few people want to go or live, while Moonglade became neutral and Hyjal was nonexistent. So most people still felt more attachment to Ashenvale. (And wasn’t Ashenvale originally said to have been blessed by Elune to always be nighttime, or am I misremembering?)
So, a whole bunch of night elf fans are really only focused on Ashenvale. (As a side note, I’m a bit curious now as to what the reaction would have been if the Horde attack was somehow a naval one instead, and Darkshore and Teldrassil were invaded/destroyed but Ashenvale remained secure. I know I’d be happier, but I wonder what others would think.)
And Ashenvale, described as the absolute perfect environmental match for the night elves’ tactics… is where they lose the most. (Obligatory reference to night elves getting ambushed in Ashenvale, at night, by goblin shredders. wat.) And have these losses shoved in their faces the most.
Horde parading with their tabards and flags in the very first Ashenvale questing area Bathran’s Haunt, demolishers bombarding Maestra’s Post while the player collects mementos of the dead paladins the Horde slew there, Astranaar on fire, Silverwind Refuge taken by the Horde with the night elf former residents still lying dead underfoot… it builds up a lot of pathos. And while the logos might be satisfied with “ignore the demolishers, they’re supposed to be gone” and “the tweet says you guys won everything”, that doesn’t pay off the pathos debt that the questing built up.
And because that pathos only registers if a person is already personally invested and has a certain view of the subfaction… it looks weird to everyone else.
Hence my earlier ‘what if’ post where Ashenvale could be two zones, one to represent only the night elf heartland where they get to be super saiyan Horde-busters just like they busted Ragnaros and permanently end the Horde threat there, and a second zone where the Horde gets to fight for resources and hold the territory that is clearly visible from their own capitol.
Because it’s land the Horde currently has. They have no reason to give it back except as a gesture of goodwill. Anduin outright admitted his forces as they are now can’t beat the forces of the Horde under Sylvanas. And none of those forces died, they just decided they wanted nothing to do with the rot thot after she abandoned them all. Logically, the Horde should be the dominant military force on the planet right now.
They can keep Ashenvale if they want to. The question is if they should give it back.
They should give it back to show they’re not pure evil.
Realistically they won’t though because they indeed are
pure evil
So basically, if the Night Elves haven’t reconquered it themselves somehow some way, it’s Horde land.