The Horde can be redeemed only if they love the Alliance with all their heart. Do you accept Anduin as your Lord and Savior? He has sent his disciples: Baine and Saurfang to spread word of his benevolence.
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Metzen is retired. He doesn’t do more than Thrall voice acting at this point. The creative director is Alex Afrasiabi I believe. Alex is most definitely at work.
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Drassil almost certainly means crown. It just happens that basically ever World Tree has been named ‘crown of something’.
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Obviously if the Alliance attacked first they wouldn’t bring up a treaty they themselves were breaking.
In that quote the Horde admits the Alliance is upholding the truce, thus even on the Horde side the Alliance doesn’t attack first. Which leaves only the Horde as attacking first.
And if Ashran is canon it shows the Alliance and Horde were at each other’s throats from the start of Warlords of Draenor and forward. If Ashran is not canon there’s no evidence of a peace treaty because it is only ever mentioned by NPCs there. Varian trusting the Horde not to attack them at the Broken Shore does not make for a formal treaty, especially when Genn did not actually trust the Horde to actually protect the Alliance’s flank.
That is what is full circle.
It’s not ridiculous, as Varian outed Sylvanas specifically as an exception.
As of A Good War the Horde still had the Alliance driven from Gilneas, so no such concession of territories on the Eastern Kingdoms had been established, so that doesn’t fit your suggestion.
As covered, you have neither established that Genn ever formally signed a treaty that did not include exceptions to containing Sylvanas, nor have you established that any treaty that could have been established in was not broken by Ashran even before the Legion attacked. What we do have is evidence of Sylvanas being considered a threat to be contained and hostility between the Horde and Alliance even before the Broken Shore. So your idea of retaliation for Gilneas being void has no actual foundation to be based on.
Including to be there to contain Sylvanas.
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blizzard should add more player choice in the game
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I think you underestimate the lengths of hypocrisy and willful ignorance people will go to to deny their own wrongdoings.
It doesn’t say the Alliance is upholding the truce, it says they’re hiding behind the truce. That could mean many things, especially since we don’t know the conditions of the treaty. And again, nothing in that quote says the Horde attacked the Alliance, only that the Horde is going to try and capture the artifact first.
Again, the Alliance and Horde work together at multiple times throughout the expansion.
https://wow.gamepedia.com/Rorka
The guys we have a peace treaty with now?
Well, it did exist, so that’s kind of an irrelevant point.
But that’s not a circle. Something getting referenced at a later point doesn’t make it circular.
No, he didn’t. Nothing in Varian’s dialog notes Sylvanas as an “exception” to anything, not in the sense that she would be exempted from the treaty or the Alliance could just attack her freely.
First, Good War doesn’t exactly establish that it was the Horde which still had the Alliance driven out of Gilneas. But moreover, note that I said “pushed for concessions”. Dialog suggesting things Varian might want doesn’t show they got those things.
I’ve established that a treaty between the Alliance and Horde did exist. Both Sylvanas and Genn are leaders of factions which comprise the Horde and Alliance. If you want to say the treaty excepted Sylvanas, you need to show that to be the case, which you have not done.
You have not shown evidence that the treaty was ever broken. Again, a small isolated conflict on an island in an alternate dimension which you yourself have said may not be canon is not evidence that a treaty was dismissed.
In fact, given that questing in the Spires of Arak occurs after the PC visits Ashran and can hear that dialog, yet the treaty is still referred to in the present-tense, as still existing and being in effect, that would actually prove the treaty survived whatever happened on Ashran.
Yet there’s no evidence of that. If you want to insist they were there to “contain”, you need to prove it.
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The U.S. and the U.S.S.R practised operations against each other during the Cold War while still abiding by various treaties.
War and Peace are more complicated than simple binary equations.
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That is rather my point, that Varian’s intentions were to contain Sylvanas while simultaneously making peace with the rest of the Horde.
That is a good find. That does take Ashran out of the equation, yes.
However, you have also not established that this wasn’t the case, while I have established both Varian’s intentions and the Alliance forces in Hillsbrad between Warlords of Draenor and Legion.
You have not established that the treaty does protect Sylvanas, as you yourself admit:
Or as Drahliana put it
What exactly do you think this entails?
I don’t need to establish that it wasn’t the case, you need to establish that it was the case. All you’ve shown are some vague suggestions from Varian from before the treaty was made, and some forces being present in a particular area. None of that proves your insistences, because there is no evidence showing those things to be connected in any way.
We don’t know the conditions of the treaty, but we do know it was between the parties of the Horde and the Alliance. The Forsaken are a component of the Horde, and as such are to be included in Horde agreements, as a Horde entity, by default.
After all, when the PC is speaking to Rorka, and says that “WE have a peace treaty with the Alliance”, that PC can also be Forsaken.
If you want to say the Forsaken weren’t included, that it was valid for the Alliance to attack them, you would need to show extraordinary and definitive evidence to that effect. The forces near Hillsbrad do not show that, and neither do Varian’s suggestions.
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Likely the exact same efforts the Alliance took during the Horde leveling experience in at the very least Hillsbrad Foothills.
You do need to establish that this wasn’t the case, since your proposition that Genn’s seeking vengeance for Gilneas was void is entirely based on it. Varian’s words and the Alliances forces in Hillsbrad are evidence that actions against Sylvanas were intended even with a treaty.
In Hillsbrad Foothills questing the Alliance is preparing to invade the area and conquer it from the Forsaken. So you’re saying that this peace treaty came with the provision of the Alliance being able to freely invade and conquer the Forsaken?
No, I don’t, because that’s saying that I need to prove a negative rather than you needing to provide evidence for an affirmative, which is ridiculous.
Varian’s words say nothing about allowing for more conflict with the Horde through this peace treaty, the Stormpike near Hillsbrad aren’t at all evidence of action against Sylvanas given you can’t prove why they’re there, and there is absolutely nothing showing either of these things to be connected to begin with.
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Likely yes, to take back Southshore and all the other territory the Horde invaded so that the Alliance could get Gilneas back finally.
No, it’s saying you need to prove a positive. You need to prove that Genn’s choice of retaliation for Gilneas is void. And to do that you need to prove that the treaty protects Sylvanas. Which you have done neither, while what is in game suggests the opposite of what you are.
That’s insane though. You’re saying the Horde agreed to a treaty in which they could be freely invaded, and not only that they could be invaded, but also that their leaders - Their Warchief, in fact - Could be justifiably attacked and killed. This is an extraordinary claim, and requires extraordinary evidence in order to be accepted as valid.
Not to mention they weren’t even really contesting Gilneas at that point.
But that’s not proving a positive. The idea that Genn retaliating for Gilneas is void is merely based on the fact that he, as a member of the Alliance, agreed to peace with the Horde after Gilneas happened. This would mean that attacking after that agreement, for something that predated that agreement, renders his word a lie and his actions a betrayal of the peace. All that needs to be proven on that front is that a peace treaty between the factions existed, which I have done.
Now, if you want to argue that Genn didn’t betray that agreement, you need to prove that the treaty with the Horde, rather than including Sylvanas and the Forsaken, which is the default position given they are members of the Horde, instead excluded them, and the information you have provided does not prove that, for all of the reasons I’ve previously stated.
In your head, maybe. Not that a “suggestion” is proof of your position anyway.
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I am saying all of this yes. It was in Varian’s very warning to the Horde:
- Varian Wrynn: If your Horde fails to uphold honor, as Garrosh did...
Varian Wrynn: We will end you.
Edit: Varian also further specifies being proactive on this point:
- Now, to the work of winning the peace. I would like to station a garrison near Theramore. We need to investigate cleansing the plague from Gilnean lands so they can rebuild. We must contain Sylvanas.
From here on forward, the Alliance will be proactive. Never again can there be another the likes of Hellscream.
You have not established that Genn agreed to peace with Sylvanas. And you have made no effort to, which I suspect is because you know there is no statement anywhere that he has.
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My only responsibility as a Horde main is to kill more Alliance.
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That’s a ridiculous standard. There was clearly peace between the Alliance and Horde, documented in game and in supplementary materials. It’s true that we don’t see Genn sign a statement reading “I am at peace with the Forsaken,” but the Gilneans were part of the Alliance, and furthermore acted as if there was peace. That only changed when he felt the Alliance was betrayed at the Broken Shore.
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Is it now? Only if you ignore Varian’s words at the end of the Siege of Orgrimmar and posit that the words weren’t acted upon, the way Veloran is doing without anything to back him up. You also both use the word “ridiculous” as if the discredits the point as if using that word actually has any regards to how canon the point is or isn’t.
And Carmageddon, isn’t it one of your flagship points that the Forsaken act the way they do because they believe the Alliance are an existential crisis? In such a case, as you point out, Genn believed Sylvanas was still a threat and believed that she betrayed them.
- Genn Greymane: I knew it! I knew we couldn't trust her!
So regardless of Sylvanas intentions to betray the Alliance or not, Genn believed she did, so acted as if there was no further treaty by the time of Stormheim. Both Lor’themar and Blizzard acknowledged this:
- Lor'themar Theron says: The Alliance lost its king on the Broken Shore. Its people cry out for vengeance.
J. Allan Brack at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AJCwT6s5e1I&t=1h4m35s :
- Alliance. Alliance. You do not forget the Broken Shore. You do not forget the betrayal that lead to the death of your own King Varian.
So even in this angle based on what people believed, Veloran is still wrong.
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i still can’t believe that blizzard made the alliance actually think this.
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I’m still waiting for Alex Afrasiabi to come out in an interview with a retcon that Sylvanas did plan to betray Varian the whole time, despite whatever else has been published before.
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So? I’m not arguing that Genn ever stopped believing the Forsaken were a threat. Nor am I arguing that he ever stopped hating them. He should hate them, and Sylvanas in particular. I am simply pointing out that the Horde and Alliance were at peace when he attacked in Stormheim.
The argument isn’t about what people believe. I mean, I think Genn’s attack makes sense from the perspective of his character. But it was still exactly that: an attack. He acted on his beliefs in a way that was both logical for his character and a violation of the peace between the two sides (not to mention a violation of his orders).
I’m not sure what your point is.
Dude, that is not an agreement with the Horde. That is a threat. What, do you think the Horde were like “Yeah, okay, sure. Sounds reasonable.”?
In fact, the only response from the Horde is for Vol’jin to rise up menacingly and stare down Varian.
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