We’ve talked at length about Baine’s rebellion against Sylvanas, and one topic that frequently comes up is that it seems odd that Derek Proudmoore was the straw that broke the tauren’s back. Many have questioned how Teldrassil alone wasn’t enough.
Which makes even Baine, allegedly one of the more moral Horde leaders, still kind of morally dubious.
But how much worse is the Horde PC, according to Blizzard?
After all, Baine wasn’t even part of the War of Thorns - Sylvanas sent him off to Silithus to get him out of her hair precisely because she was worried about his moral objections. On the other hand, she knows that the PC will be all over any mission she gives us. And we execute her and Saurfang’s plan perfectly.
On top of that, we don’t object when she burns Teldraasil - Saurfang tries to stop it, but we just stand there. And then we go with her to defend Undercity. And then we keep following her orders. We only finally rebel (if we choose) when Saurfang and Baine decide enough is enough and we switch to doing what they tell us.
Blizzard has set up the narrative so that the Horde PC is basically irredeemable. We are tainted by the original sin of Teldrassil, and now face no consequences because we just flow along with the rebel leaders when the time comes. But we don’t earn redemption the way they do by putting themselves on the line.
It’s a bizarre narrative structure that requires Horde players to essentially see themselves as voiceless henchmen who just do whatever we are told. I get the joke about all of us essentially being murderhobos, but for the Horde PC, that is almost literally true.
Basically, I don’t see how our characters can be redeemed for Teldrassil.
they believe siding with saurfang and baine and then inevitably teaming up with the alliance or w/e is redemption
i find it silly but ill take it.
also yeah, we had no choice. that’s why i dont care about loyalist crying that their choice isn’t really a choice. where was my choice in the war of thorns?! i had to “play along” too for the entire launch.
Mmmm I think you’re being too hard on the Horde PC. We went into the War of Thorns with ‘honorable’ intentions. We attacked only Alliance soldiers and even helped relocate Auberdine civilians to safety. We didn’t openly object to Sylvanas burning Teldrassil simply because the narrative didn’t give us the opportunity to do so.
Frankly, I don’t think there’s any need for the Horde player specifically to be “redeemed,” but any redemption we get will come from joining Saurfang and Thrall’s rebellion.
The PC on both sides has basically never been acknowledged by the enemy in major confrontations. (Though that is starting to change in regards to the Old Gods plotline)
So I don’t think it’s really possible to redeem the Horde player when the Alliance acts as if they don’t exist.
I am feeling more and more that the PC doesn’t exist and that we are just like a camera. We have no say in anything, we just follow the actors and sometimes we take the internal point of view of one type of character (the loyalist, the rebel, the Archdruid, the Generalon Draenor etc…)
Yeah but just for those, but for instance in 8.1 you are helping Saurfang against Sylvanas and then you raise dead nelves for her in Darkshore. There is no logic there.
We need to see what happens in the future since those happened before the Xal’atath questline. Imo that marks the start of a new standard.
Need to see what happens in the epilogue of the Sylvanas part of freeing Baine imo.
Relatedly, as horribly as I think it’s been handled though it’s a noble endeavor, I think the option of player choice being added means all future stories have to be judged by the fact that they are willing to add player choice.
I don’t know if you are speaking of the new scenario but we already know this.
I don’t think it is a question of future or not. It keeps being true or false. The story with N’Zoth is very focused on the PC but in the same patch the fact that there is two Baine scenario also means that there is no true path for our PC for now at least there is no canon path.
It also varies from expansion to expansion, WoD was heavily focus on us but it went backwards with BFA.
Guess I wasn’t clear, what I meant by epilogue is the fallout from the 8.2 scenario. It basically ends and people pick sides and Nathanos says “keep being a spy” AFAIK we never hear from Sylvanas directly about it.
The Sylvanas loyalists in the scenario are for all intents and purposes, a bunch of no names.
Also, to me, the big question is: when there is a faceoff between the 2 sides, does the player get acknowledged for helping the Rebels by Sylvanas with the other members of the Horde around (or opposite if you are a loyalist)? That will be the test.
Though one thing that I think is new this time in BfA is that you are aware of what the opposite faction PC is doing. There’s a lot of indirect interactions between the 2 campaigns. Biggest one probably being the one on the seas where the Horde finds Derek and the Alliance attacks the fleet.
As in, for standing against Sylvanas, who now has literally every crime levied against her, you’ll get a pardon, and have Jaina, Anduin or both do what Varian did at the end of MoP; Throw out a threat with no weight behind it at all, both in game or without, and that’s it. The other leaders thoughts on the matter won’t mean jack, with perhaps a mini-Tyrande raid ala Obsidian Sanctum since she is still, understandably, pissed about Teldrassil, and wants nothing to do with a truce or treaty.
At this point it’s the only way to have things pan out; Just have Blizzard say “It’s fixed.” and thats it. It won’t make sense, it won’t make anyone happy, and it won’t be a satisfying end. But it’ll be written as done then filed with the other expansion stories.
Okay and how is this not counter to the fact I am being told that I have a moral responsibility in REAL LIFE, to something I had no control over?
Well- I guess they will just lose half of their player base. Because if they think that long time Horde players (which is a large majority) is going to be “forced” into playing Alliance, they have another thing coming. Still not sure how I have some moral responsibility.
I don’t remember falling in love, marrying and having a kid with World of Warcraft. Or committed any crimes against real people.
The FICTION in Wow, is very much crapping on Horde players. But that isn’t my responsibility, because I didn’t write it. And nor am I bound to Blizzard or Activision. They know that. They write it, I can walk and they are fully aware of that. Or they can write it and I don’t walk.
It is, but no one here said Horde players had a moral responsability.
I don’t thing it is Blizzard’s plan, it is not happening. I think they genuinly want to tell a story about war is bad and about the Horde finally uniting but they are doing a terrible job at doing it
Back on topic :
During this expac Blizzard is really crafting the story without the players in mind. For instance, all the “play along” scenarii are the result of them wanting us to see the story without having a really good reason to be there. It is just a substitute replacement but it doesn’t make more sense
Just kill a something, then raise your weapon in the air and shout “Azeroth is free!” and your good. Completely redeemed. For horde players you would probably get NEs cheering for you.
By accepting the fact that war is war and the leaders bear the ultimate responsibility for it’s execution. The American soldier did not bear a cross for Hiroshima, Nagasaki, Tokyo, or Dresden and neither should the Horde PC.