Horde PCs and Moral Responsibility

Lore Story Forum
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But it’s an enemy the horde created time and time again for themselves. It also causes a lot of whiplash coming off the previous expansion when the horde player works with both Tyrande and Malfurion, only to be told that you now have to fight them for the threadbare reason of “Anduin Wrynn will start a war of conquest against the horde”.

For better or worse, the horde’s concepts of pragmatism and honor have never been written as an alien concept compared to the alliance, so it’s hard to accept that the horde just sees things differently when it’s time for them to do bad stuff.

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In case anyone has forgotten, The Horde is fighting a war for its very survival. Jaina Proudmoore is one of the biggest threats to that survival. Raising Derek is justified by the fact that his purpose is to take out that threat. He is after all one of the Enemy, and whatever is done to him is justified by the purpose behind it.

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It is Sylvanas who is waging war. She escalated the war into one of annihilation

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I remember back when I used to be able to try to justify Sylvanas’ actions within the rules of the narrative. You have my sympathies.

In another story, Sylvanas crossing that line and violating that singular pillar of Forsaken morality, would be a powerful moment that raises interesting questions about how far you should be willing to go to protect yourself and your family. Even in that story though, raising someone and enslaving them would still have been Sylvanas crossing that line and violating that pillar of Forsaken morality. Maybe it’s justified, maybe it’s not. Maybe the hero would have found another way, or maybe Sylvanas taking that sin onto herself saved all the Horde and we’ll never know.

Unfortunately if you’ve been watching it’s pretty clear we’re redoing Mists of Pandaria, and if you’ve done a head count of where the various Horde leaders stand in the upcoming civil war, it’s pretty clear who is Vol’jin and who is Garrosh. In the newest content Jaina isn’t the greatest threat facing the Horde, a claim that has snuck in a few times but never materialized in game. In the newest content Jaina is allied with the Horde and putting her life on the line for the Horde’s honor and identity. As hackle raising as that is to me.

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Why precisely is the horde fighting a war for its survival again?

Is one of Sylvanas’ greater acts of villainy really justification for continued lesser acts of villainy?

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You do realize there was no Alliance before the Horde. The Alliance was created to oppose the horde. It is also something Lor’themar should be keenly aware of as a former member of the Alliance.

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Sure, happy to help. During the events of Legion two things became clear. First, that Genn Greymane would attack Sylvanas, and the Horde, regardless of the consequences. His attack at Stormheim robbed Azeroth of an entire force dedicated to bringing the Divine Aegis to the Kirin Tor, something needed to repel the Burning Legion and save all of Azeroth. Second, that the Alliance could, because of Orgrimmar’s position and Stormwind’s, survive a naval attack directed at their capital, but that the Horde could not survive a naval attack directed at its capital. These two facts, coupled with Genn Greymane’s continued position as an advisor to the young and inexperienced Anduin Wrynn, and the destabilizing effect of a powerful new resource located significantly closer to the Horde center of power than it was to the Alliance center of power, made the likelihood of the Alliance preemptively attacking the Horde and successfully taking the Horde’s capital far too likely.

You’re welcome, let me know if you have any other questions.

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48

there would be no need for redemption if blizzard had made this expansion about war, a truly war, not the same old s@#4 about good vs evil…

you see if the alliance had gone and made some bad decisions, some dark actions that put in question what is the alliance standing for and why they’re together with each other, this expansion would be alot better.

this was an expac to focus on the classic races, like NE, forsaken, Dwarfs and trolls, and not bringing new lands and ppl that would be better off in an expansion focused on exploration.

but the way things are now, I can see just one path and it is oblivion, next expansion no one will remember the bad decisions that the horde and us the PC are making, no one will ever tell us something about all these things.

at this point I have no faith in blizzard history and lore development team, they’re blind and obsolete, no one is happy be either Sylvanas’ horde, ‘‘honor’’ horde, or the Alliance.

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Maybe if the Amani Empire had of defeated Arathor and Quel’Thalas they wouldn’t of existed at all. How many wars do we need to go back.

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Yes Actually, quite a few.

  1. Why was the invasion of Gilneas not mentioned in relation to the events in Stormheim? She never starts that mess she wouldn’t have had Genn in her business in Stormheim. Just like Teldrassil can’t be solely placed on Sylvanas, neither can Gilneas be put solely on Garrosh.

  2. You also fail to mention the meeting between the Forsaken and their human families in Arathi. Why? Would that be because Sylvanas tanked a promising start to peace by slaughtering the forsaken there?

  3. You mention Anduin being young and inexperienced with Genn as a bad influence, yet the entire meeting in Arathi was done at Anduin’s direction and even Genn, who opposed it initially was brought around. Why are you underestimating him? Everything was on a different course before Sylvanas decided to purge the forsaken who found hope they could reunite with their living families.

  4. With the giant sword impaled in the planet and the Speaker of Azeroth himself making the rounds to persuade all the factions (not just the Alliance and the Horde) to help the planet recover and survive, why did Sylvanas ignore his warnings and decide this was an excellent opportunity to start an all out war?

  5. Why when making the effort to attack Teldrassil with the express purpose of capting it and its population for leverage, did the horde burn it and the civilians in an act of evil worthy of the Orcs when they were under the influence of the demon blood?

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It is just kinda pointless to say the horde exists because of the Alliance when the Alliance was formed to fight back from the Horde’s initial invasion. Lor’themar was not having an enlightened moment when that thought came to him.

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The Original Alliance existed because of the Original Horde.

The New Horde exists because of the Original Alliance.

The New Alliance exists because of the New Horde.

Seems pretty simple.

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Okay, but you didn’t say thank you for the answer I already gave you, and that makes you seem kind of rude.

Because it wasn’t germane to the point. Remember that you asked why we were in this war of annihilation. And since the Horde started this one it’s their motives that are relevant. Genn Greymane’s attack in Stormheim played into the Horde’s reasoning. Garrosh’s much earlier attack on Gilneas didn’t.

Because it’s also not germane to the point. I’ll do you the courtesy of not repeating my explanation above about the start of this war coming down to the Horde’s motives but will only repeat, anything that wasn’t expressed by Horde leadership as a reason for the war won’t be relevant to the question you asked.

I’m not estimating him at all. My opinions of Anduin are also not germane as I was not consulted on the start of this war and am not a leader of a fictional group.

She didn’t ignore the threat or his warnings. She sent Baine Bloodhoof and a contingent of druids and shaman to the wound. This appears to be an entirely separate topic now.

Again, not germane to the question you asked. That happened well after the war of annihilation had started and, as you point out, wasn’t the original course of action so obviously had no bearing on the decision to start the war.

Now you’ll forgive me, but I don’t think you’re quite as stupid as you’re pretending to be. In fact, it looks as if you asked these questions in bad faith because of a knee-jerk need to ‘defend’ your faction, rather than discuss the topic you raised. It’s the kind of scatter shot spray of unrelated points that don’t quite accomplish anything but seem to be trying to… I dunno, shame me for picking a red avatar?

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The answer is basically the horde is in a war for survival because they choose to start a war for survival. They are to blame for this. The is basically the answer to the question I asked.

If Stormheim is germane to the question then the reason for Stormheim (Gilneas) is also germane. Sylvanas thought that Genn would fracture the Alliance depended on Gilneas.

The meeting between the forsaken and their living families is germane cause it put truth to Sylvanas’ lies/manipulation of Saurfang. Odds are he never had a clue about what went on cause if he did then he wouldn’t have bought the idea of an eventual attack by Anduin of all people.

I apologize for not taking your thank you seriously. A flaw of the written word is the emotion behind the words are easily misinterpreted. I felt you had come off mocking.

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Yes, that is the most basic of answers. Rather than stop there though, I decided to delve into the motives and events that informed that choice.

Gilneas did not inform that choice. If this were a different topic, maybe Garrosh’s invasion of Gilneas would be a factor. But I promise you, Sylvanas isn’t sitting up at nights remembering how she left a few Worgen alive in Gilneas. She’s not haunted by the events in Gilneas. For Genn it was the destruction of his kingdom, the death of his son, and a turning point in his life. For Sylvanas, Gilneas was a bad job that her crappy boss gave her that one time, before he turned into a time traveler and died.

I suspect Gilneas would be a focal point of discussion if life had turned out differently and we were discussing why the Alliance started a war. But the Alliance didn’t start it, and Gilneas did not have any bearng on the Horde’s choice.

Same thing with the other points you raised. Generally if the topic were, “does the Horde deserve to be kicked in the teeth” or “should the Horde feel sorry for themselves because the Alliance hates them” then any one of those points would be worth bringing up. But you didn’t ask either of those questions.

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The context of the quote was actually from MoP when Proudmoore expelled the Sunreavers from Dalaran. He went on further to say “Because of their prejudice and their bigotry!? They force us ever closer to Hellscream’s Horde”.

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That one is arguably on Caelia Menethil.

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A fair point. It is a shame they only really broke into the aspect of choice after this point. When it might have been nice to be against the War of Thorns from the outset. Or at least vocally reluctant.

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Not according to World of Warcraft: Chronicle Volume III, Page 201:

    Gilneas had escaped invasion from outside forces due to the massive Greymane Wall on its northern border. But that had changed with the Cataclysm. Earthquakes had shattered part of the wall, leaving Gilneas vulnearble.

    Garrosh Hellscream was not the only member of the Horde who desired Gilneas. Sylvanas Windrunner was eager to bring the kingdom under her dominion. She convinced Garrosh to give her control over the invasion force, and she led the Horde’s rampage through the isolated nation.

And while you answered Julia’s question in one sense, that being Saurfang’s thoughts on Genn and Stormheim and thus the Horde motivation, you also avoided the answer to “why” the Sylvanas was attacked in Stormheim to begin with.

I do have a follow up question, if you would. Why is the Horde is holding the Alliance to standards the Horde doesn’t even hold themselves to?

In an unprovoked attack during the doomsday scenario of the Cataclysm while the world was being pulled apart, Sylvanas both tried to assassinate Genn himself - another nation’s leader much in the same way Sylvanas would be in the future as the leader of the Horde during Stormheim - and Sylvanas also broke the orders of her superiors at the time as well - as people point out that Genn broke Anduin’s orders - in both developing and deploying the Plague on Gilneas and beyond which was against the against the Horde’s laws not only under Garrosh’s reign, but also under Thrall’s before him, as the Kor’kron Overseers that had been station in the Undercity by Thrall warned Forsaken players about doing any more work on the Plague.

Sylvanas was not forgiven after the Siege of Orgrimmar just for helping out, nor was the use of the Plague any sort of secret, as Varian specifically says at the end of the conflict:

    We need to investigate cleansing the plague from Gilnean lands so they can rebuild. We must contain Sylvanas.

    From here on forward, the Alliance will be proactive. Never again can there be another the likes of Hellscream.


But the Horde under Vol’jin never addressed any of Sylvanas’ actions. Vol’jin never punished Sylvanas for anything she should have been held accountable for. No, instead, during Vol’jin’s rule, he actually withdrew the Kor’kron from the Undercity - once again, placed there not by Garrosh, but by Thrall - and gave Sylvanas even more freedom. Which is even more astonishing because Overseer Kraggosh was mutilated and killed during Vol’jin’s rule, and nothing was done about it, and this was flaunted in plain sight with his body openly displayed in a cage in the Undercity.

And the practically literal crowning achievement of Vol’jin’s reign on top of that? Vol’jin appointing Sylvanas Warchief. Another not just the likes of Hellscream, but worse than him, that makes him look like an amateur.

So when we look at why Sylvanas was able to launch the War of the Thorns and Saurfang’s thoughts on Genn’s actions at Stormheim that he was never punished for by the Alliance, that happened because of Sylvanas’ assassination attempt on Genn and the tactics she used at Gilneas that she was never punished for by the Horde.

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Actually it is still that according to Chronicle, because Garrosh was still the one to start the conflict and Sylvanas only took control of the invasion after he botched it.

That’s because Genn’s motivation to retaliate against the Horde for Gilneas became void the moment he decided to agree to a treaty with the Horde after MoP.

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