To answer for myself–in the eyes of me. So I can not feel like I’m playing the evil side. There shouldn’t even be an “evil side.”
Or if I can’t have that, so I can know that I’m playing the evil side and then can decide whether I feel like doing that or not. But they need to pick one.
I don’t know if that’s what Carmageddon meant when she wrote the OP, but it’s the way I feel about it.
Thanks.
This is why the Horde BfA story IMO is way worse than the Alliance one. Plus by not showing literally every non-Forsaken Horde leader insanely outraged by Sylvanas’ acts, Blizzard is (like it or not) implying that they’re either completely ignorant about what she’s doing, or that they secretly approve of it.
Hahaha, sure, if what we are arguing about is the color of the teapot.
Or maybe, even more so than ostrich in sand about the lore we do have, it would be more apt to you’re the Disney version of the Dormouse from Alice in Wonderland living inside the teapot and saying you can’t see one.
However, if you want to see why I bring any of this up, Dotzy is a perfect example of someone ignoring the Horde’s wrongdoings and using the Alliance’s wrongdoings to put on a mask of indignation to hide behind.
This rather supports my point, doesn’t it?
Authority? That’s a very strange thing to bring up. (Edit: Misread) I think the Alliance are the only ones who had the right to stay? Can’t say I think that at all, nor sure where you would have read that in my posts. In general, your response seems rather random and not actually connected to what I was saying?
Authority is not an issue here, nor who had the right to stay. Blowing a horn alone is also not an act to have someone’s back. Sylvanas did not blow the horn and then run off with Vol’jin by herself. She sent Val’kyr to come pick up Horde and carry them off. But she made no effort to help the Alliance retreat after blowing the horn, leaving them for dead after having said “We’ll take the ridge and cover your flank.”
Not "right to stay"–"right to say." To make a decision.
You’ve heard the quotation, “No plan survives contact with the enemy”?
“We’ll take the ridge and cover your flank” was the plan.
When the actual battle happened (contact with the enemy), holding the ridge turned out not to be possible, and any realistic military commander would know that was a thing that could happen. Any realistic military commander would also know that there would be a chance they might have to retreat from the moment they went into battle. There is nothing at all dishonorable about changing your plan in response to what happens during a battle. It’s not only okay–it’s expected.
I’m betting you would have been fine with the situation if Varian had realized there were too many demons and called for the retreat?
Woah. Sorry. My bad. I completely misread that, yep.
Sorry, let me look at what you posted again.
Re-read properly now. But, no, that’s not really applicable here, either, since it’s not a matter of who should have called for a retreat when, but how they managed that retreat to keep their word.
If Varian told the Horde he would have their back, and he called for retreat and didn’t help them get out safely as well, Varian would have been wrong as well.
One thing I’ve never understood with the Broken Shore stuff and people getting antsy at the Horde is, it was a trap and we were all going to die. Retreating, at least on the Hordes part, didn’t seem to be something that demons planned for, cause Victory or Death. The Alliance had no visual on the ridge, so if the Horde all died, they would have zero warning of demons coming over the cliff and by then would have been way too late to go for the Gunship. Without the Horde retreating right as they did and in the way they did, erryone would have died. If She came to help Varian retreat as was suggested, there would the “What are you doing?” conversation, and both sides only got away down to the wire. Imagine if the Fel reaver was around like, 30 seconds earlier because Genn was reeing at Sylvanas.
The Horde side is actually even worse.
Then he gets stabbed and changes his mind.
That’s all cool and heroic, but then suddenly the majority of the Legion teleport in and lol at you for falling into their trap, in the words of Orc Hitler. “Times change.”
Story changes, too, apparently, as now we know something was messing with Vol’jin’s mind.
Something that made him off his guard and name Sylvanas Warchief, nothing about the retreat.
Potentially that something was already in his head by the time he turned to Sylvanas after he fell.
It wasn’t, as he account the “spirits” giving him his vision while he was chilling on the pointy chair back in Org. Before that it was just a bad feeling and something making him sluggish.
The horde didn’t retreat. It was routed. It wasn’t that the horde wasn’t willing to help the Alliance retreat safely as well. It was that the horde line was broken and there was little left they could do except run away or be slaughtered to the last. The Alliance was in a way better position to the Horde when it came to retreat. The Horde had to flee the whole way back to the beach with Legion airships bombarding them and demons chasing them.
Honestly the situation changed to. The only thing the Horde could do was get wiped out and if that had happened, even if Varian escaped, the Horde would be without half its leaders and most of its heavy hitters. Lor’themar and Gallywix were the only Horde leaders not present. It would have devastated the Horde command and greatly weakened the Hordes ability to fight the Legion. That would mean the Alliance would be dealing with the same legion threat but without the aid of Horde forces and Anduin is on record as saying that without the Horde’s strength, the Alliance wouldn’t have had the power to drive back the Legion.
And in return the Alliance might still have Varian, assuming that Gul’dan didn’t still just call down that Fel Reaver because the Horde wouldn’t have been able to do anything to stop that.
There is literally nothing the Horde could have done to make Alliance losses any less severe. As Sylvanas honestly said, regardless what she did, it wouldn’t have changed Varian’s fate.
You’re holding them to a standard that no real-world military commander would.
I’m not sure if you remember the geography of the Broken Shore, but the outcropping the Horde used to cover the Alliance flank was not close to the route of retreat.
If the Horde had tried to cover an Alliance retreat they would have been trapped and annihilated. Once the retreat was sounded there was no aid they could offer simply because of the geography.
Vol’jin explains he was already being affected at the Broken Shore.
Somethin’ was definitely helpin’ our enemies dat day. But who or what could dat have been?
Da loa were silent and their powers were gon, as if I’d lost their favor.
I wasn’t saying the Horde wasn’t willing to help the Alliance. I doubt they thought about it at all, since, you’re right, the Horde was entirely concerned with getting themselves out. But that doesn’t change that they didn’t help the Alliance retreat. Which is all I can say on the subject, because beyond that we run into a bunch of “Why didn’t the Horde do [X] or [Y]?” questions we can’t actually get answers to.
I don’t recall ever seeing Anduin in Argus. Beyond perhaps Anduin talking about Suramar (in which both the Alliance and Horde forces ended up in a timelock and useless after all that build up), even the Alliance as a whole did very little to drive the Legion back when it was basically just Velen.
You think WoW runs on real world standards? BfA in its entirety displays that WoW is not written to real world military standards and not the way any real world military commander would act. That’s the idea, any way. Real world history obviously also does have its fair share of stupid people.
Val’kyr can fly.
In this particular case, yes, I do. If you disagree, then I guess we’ll just have to agree to disagree.
That’s literally what I said, that when he was on the shore he had a bad feeling about it all (The loa abandoning him and the such) and being sluggish. (Blades getting past his guard.) Nothing was talking to him, telling him it was a good idea to retreat, he even says right there that they were silent, then LATER he gets a vision from the “spirits”.
In such a situation, it’s not really a matter of agreeing or disagreeing, but rather, we’re not even having the same conversation.
And something was already cutting the loa off from him, and he still doesn’t have all his memories back to what happened.
He doesn’t have memories of what told him to make Sylvanas Warchief.