Horde needs to change its culture

Go beyond just removing the Warchief position.

Work on improving empathy towards non-horde races.

Less of a might makes right philosophy. To often do we see the Horde be the aggressors when it comes to acquiring more resources.

Transform there concept of honor into something that is actually concrete/moral.

A lot of changes had to be made in the former Axis countries so they wouldn’t repeat their past mistakes.

Now im not saying Alliance soldiers should be stationed in horde territory to enforce change, but im hoping Blizzard can make it so the Horde can improve itself from its dark past, for good this time.

No more Forskaen acting like scourge like or Orcs acting like the old orcish horde.

If there are horde members committing evil in the future, the Horde needs to punish them in some way and prevent further acts from said transgressors.

Never again should the Horde let itself be consumed by the “darkside”.

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Forsaken are sociopathic zombies, there’s just no way in the world to make them care about your “morals”.

Orcs are heavily desensitized to violence.

Goblins are rotted to the core with greed.

The rest of the horde races could probably be brought up to higher moral standards though.

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Well the Horde has to do something about working on those races relationships with other races that aren’t affiliated with the horde.

If they don’t, I suspect the Horde won’t have a good future.

I suspect the Alliance are the ones who will need to build them selves walls, like the Pandaren/Mogu did, to keep out periodic mantid invasions. Except the alliance will need the wall to keep out periodic horde invasions.

The horde thrives on war, so if thats their future, they’ll be ok.

So you’re saying we should burn Stormwind and hunt down every single alliance dog left?

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We definitely need another thread of Alliance players explaining what is wrong with the Horde. There haven’t been nearly enough.

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Wow, you read my mind word for word.

Mind your own faction guys, otherwise the cursed monkey paw answer and blizzard will decide that Alliance players obviously want to be the bad guys the next time they decide they need faction conflict.

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Well, this is a new and original topic on this here forums.

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Honestly the orcs could go a long way if some of their shamans would be written to step up and notably assume some positions of commanding leadership, instead of so often being portrayed as their society’s passive spiritual guides who meekly step aside and let hell break loose whenever the warriors want to run amok destroying the land to fuel another conflict.

After all, the pre-Horde orcs were at their strongest when they heeded their spiritual elders (such as when the united clans and the elements took down Goria) instead of just arbitrarily ignoring them whenever honoring the spirits and not defiling the elements gets in the way of waging another war.

Thrall and the newly remade Horde went out of their way to revive the shamanistic traditions of the orcs, only for those traditions to rarely be shown as having real traction in guiding their society. The orcs largely just pay lip service to the Drek’thars who condemn reckless bloodlust while still idolizing raging killers who seek to solve every problem in the world with an axe.

It frankly was one of the things that always irritated me about how they handled Aggra’s Horde-hating influence on Thrall as he started his journey to become World Shaman - an influence that was never really conclusively addressed, and so left holes in his portrayal ever since. They had her playing up this false dichotomy of having to be either a shaman or a leader, and ne’er the two shall meet. Since then Thrall’s hovered in this area of not being Warchief not because it feels practical and necessary, but because thematically we’re supposed to swallow the idea that being a shaman and being involved in the Horde are in some way mutually exclusive. As if we’re supposed to think the only choice for an orc is to be a navel-gazing mystic who doesn’t get involved in with the Horde, or a war-loving butcher who indulges its worst impulses. Like somehow the orcs’ own spiritual focus is supposed to be fundamentally incompatible with the temperament of the orcs themselves.

The orcs don’t need some exotic turnaround to set the ship aright. They just need to actually be more like what we’re constantly told that they really are, so what we’re told actually bears some passing resemblance to what we’re shown.

I mean, orc shamans can be pretty hardcore when they want to be. They can be as tough and implacable as any orcish warrior, but the narrative insists upon removing their spines whenever they might be expected to address how the latest bout of blood and thunder is routinely demolishing and violating the very elements they’re supposed to revere and protect.

I’ll admit that part of it’s possibly that shamanism more than any other “school” of magic has been tagged as “neutral” since Cataclysm, so the important shamans all tend to routinely step aside or have other things to do the instant their own people engage in something faction-related. But that’s frankly no reason to deprive the orcs of an entire half of their cultural “kit.” Druids still interact with night elf society. Blood elf and human mages still do stuff at home with their kinsmen. So why did everyone’s shamans specifically (and in both factions, really, but most glaringly with the orcs) become so permanently shackled to the Earthen Ring that they’re forced to abstain from participating in their own peoples’ respective societies in any meaningful way? I get that somebody’s gotta keep the lights on at the Maelstrom, but did they really all have to abandon their homes and, consequently, their relevance to the stories of their own peoples? Did Aggra’s bogus “lesson” stick so well that it’s been decided shamans have to be a bunch of isolationist shut-ins who abandon all ties to the outside world so they can sit around their Order Hall exclusively talking to spirits and other shamans while ignoring anything else?

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I mean… as long as the devs are on the Horde’s site, the faction will have a good future.

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I think you meant side but regardless, I don’t think they are on anyone’s side. BfA is hardly a demonstration of favoratism considering what Blizzard put the Horde through. They are happy to screw over everyone.

As long as they are a source of revenue, both factions will have a future. Whether you call that good or not is rather subjective.

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Seriously that’s been my biggest gripe with Orcs since Cataclysm. Given a choice between respecting the land and living in harmony with the elements, or defiling the land and elements just to kick off a war; Orcs will pick the latter every single time. The Horde under Garrosh was incapable of self-sustainment. It was necessary to expand and conquer more lands in order to simply survive because they didn’t bother to think past their next conquest.

Orcish warriors are incapable of thinking past the next big fight because they are effectively addicts only interested in their next fix. So much of the Horde’s problems are their own damn fault. And this could easily be fixed by the Shaman community standing up and being the leaders of societies that they are implied to be.

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I contest the power of the Orcs pre-Old Horde. While it was the elements that destroyed Goria, they only did so because they understood that the Ogres would destroy the Throne of the Elements if the Orcs were killed by the unleashed plague. It took the elements a lot of convincing from the shaman to get them to do something. If the Ogres weren’t so interested in experimenting with the elements, then its doubtful if the furies would even entertain a similar request.

The rise of the Orcs was due to the “raging killers” they call their chieftains. Blackhand broke their power in Gorgrond, Kargath freed the slaves of Goria, and Grom reduced the Ogre influence in Goria to tiny pockets. They weren’t shaman, they were warriors. Funny enough, the war with the Ogres is the only instance where the Orcs were able to defeat a magically superior enemy with martial prowess.

This trope needs to die.

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The plague only became a factor once the orcs were dug in around the Gorian capital and besieging it. Prior to that, the united clans - united by the shamans at the behest of the elements - had successfully dismantled the Gorians’ surrounding holdings and cut the city off from both Highmaul and Bladespire.

I’m not saying they were powerful because of the shamans’ spellcasting; I’m saying they were powerful as a unified people because the shamans had brought them together in common cause. It was by far the most powerful they would ever be until the time of the Horde, when - again - it would be the word of the shamans (albeit deceived shamans, but nonetheless the shamans) that would unite the clans into a singular juggernaut with a common goal. Even in the AU Garrosh played upon the falsified circumstances of the elder shaman’s death at the Throne of the Elements to back up the validity of his warnings to Grommash, because without the shamans’ input the idea of unifying the clans would be a no-sell to the chieftains.

That first unified orcish army was already on the verge of militarily overthrowing the capital of their world’s dominant empire until the Red Pox was unleashed upon them in an attempt by the ogres to lift the siege. Even before asking the spirits for aid they had the ogres on the run, and it was only the use of a “super weapon” to kill scores of them that forced them to ask for direct intervention from the elements to end the war. The Gorians created the Pox specifically because they were under threat of their city being taken by the orcs, and consequently their whole empire being threatened with ruin.

The likes of Grom, Blackhand and Kargath indeed made serious inroads in casting down the ogres prior to the Horde, but by that point they were already dealing with the leftover city-states of an empire in decline. They were only in a position to do what they did because that first uniting of the clans - a "proto-Horde, as it were - had managed to shatter the original, entrenched Gorian Empire at its height, and they’d managed to do most of that before the Red Pox forced them to call down the elements for aid. Had the Red Pox not crippled them on the veritable eve of tearing down Goria’s walls, they’d have been on the verge of completely shattering the ogre hegemony in Draenor generations before the draenei even arrived.

All thanks to the shamans rallying them in common cause to protect the elements of their world.

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What about when the orcs beat the Draenei, id argue the Draenei had more advanced magic.

Horde is fine.

Not our fault Blizz rides us around like a cheap pony. Cause if we had a say in the story it wouldn’t have gone down the way it did.

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Wait so you mean we’d get an expansion focused on making us look like an unstoppable force not to be reckoned with?

We* would get to cut a path of destruction and glory for ourselves and suffer no consequences for it???

If you’re trying to dissuade you’re not doing a very good job.

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Okay, so, I have issues with this statement. Because OUR basic definition of “honor” is an adherence to doing the right thing. That’s… a pretty complicated discussion. Because what’s right and what’s wrong varies so vastly from culture to culture… and, even just the orcs, have at least five cultures in it. That’s not including trolls, elves, tauren, ect., ect.

No. It means you’d require the entire Alliance to kill the civilians of one race in one city. One of our heroes will chump the hell out of your forces and make you appear to look like weak idiots who don’t know how to fight.

Then you’ll spend the rest of the expansion losing every single encounter.

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