Horde controlled Darkshore

Jacksprat-the-venture-co · November 27, 2018, 6:13am

Call me an optimist, but I have hope that the Nelves can be broken.

Warsharl-frostmourne · November 27, 2018, 6:13am

why not the Horde surrender…
The Alliance neither start the war nor commit genocide…the aggressively side had always being the Horde…

Darethy-ravenholdt · November 27, 2018, 6:14am

That’s certainly possible after Darnassus, at the same time I don’t think Sylvanas would kill people just for the sake of killing them, it’s a waste of resources. If you don’t believe it out of morality, believe it out of pragmatism.

I don’t think the action was right, and I dislike the story even had it at all. But it’s an easier pill to swallow then either Varian or Garrosh’s bent to wipe out their enemies of choice down to the man.

Aedren-anvilmar · November 27, 2018, 6:16am

OK, it is grossly unfair to compare Varian to either Garrosh or Sylvanas. Unlike those two, Varian was willing to make peace. He was willing to move beyond all of the bad things the Horde did to the Alliance during the war. He had Jaina whispering temptation into his ear, and he still chose peace. I understand your reservations about the guy, but give him some credit.

Darethy-ravenholdt · November 27, 2018, 6:19am

This is another one of those book things again, it’s actually stated during a Good War that Varian chose peace because the Alliance would of likely exploded in a total war scenario.

There’s also a bit about this in game when it gets brought up to I believe Wrathion that attacking Thunder Bluff would take years, it also turned out only a fraction of the orc population supported Garrosh so they had a lot of manpower left after SoO.

Aedren-anvilmar · November 27, 2018, 6:21am

I’m operating under the assumption that the contents of his letter to Anduin in the Legion cinematic were true. Whether his initial decision was principled or pragmatic, Varian was, at the end of his life, a believer in peace with the Horde, just not of total pacifism. That is a leap of faith neither Sylvanas nor Garrosh ever made.

Darethy-ravenholdt · November 27, 2018, 6:26am

Would that leap of faith extend to the Forsaken though? Since BtS frames the Alliance as not really understanding what a Forsaken actually is, and Varians displays of ignorance, I don’t believe he would stay his hand if presented the chance.

And ultimately Sylvanas’s decision, and why I understand her more then either Garrosh or Varian, is ultimately because Windrunners reason for doing what she does is calculated and informed. Garrosh was an Orc supremacist, Varian just didn’t understand the people he was killing, after Stormheim Sylvanas was given a lot of reasons to fear the Alliance.

There’s actually a good conversation they have about this in a Good War. Azerite is revolutionizing technology and magic to the point that…ten, twenty, fifty years from now a battlefield would be unrecognizable to modern Commanders. Varian might believe that breaking the peace would be self destructive to the Alliance, but if given enough Azerite it opens up military opportunities that could potentially wipe out the Horde with little meaningful response.

Okagha-blackhand · November 27, 2018, 6:28am

I like the blizz has gone all in on the average Horde member hating this war and has given us our own Vietnam in Darkshore. Now all we need is Orcs burning their draft cards in Orgrimmar to really bring it home.

Jacksprat-the-venture-co · November 27, 2018, 6:29am

I started another thread on it but the Nelves specifically did back a war of genocide against the Forsaken.

The Alliance also inserted itself into the Forsaken war with Gilneas.

Aedren-anvilmar · November 27, 2018, 6:29am

If you buy Sylvanas’ reasoning for the War of Thorns, I assume you don’t think she originally intended to destroy Teldrassil. If you do actually believe that, why do you think she did burn the tree, if her goal was to bring about lasting peace?

Sarîa-moon-guard · November 27, 2018, 6:30am

TL;DR: A Tuesday afternoon for the Horde.

Darethy-ravenholdt · November 27, 2018, 6:32am

According to Good War, it was to break the Alliances morale and make them do something stupid in a rage. I would point out that as a result of Darnassus the Battle for Undercity happened where the Alliance rushed to the shore of Trisfal to blitz Undercity.

Had Jaina and the Void Elves not intervened Anduin had three certain deaths, four if you count Saurfang taking his hand from his axe to backswing Anduin and in the process spare his life to repay Varian. It’s horrific, but if you go on Offensive Realist logic, the Alliance should of by all rights been decapitated at Undercity. Possibly killing all the Alliance leaders at once.

If that happened, the Alliance would be forced to surrender.

Okagha-blackhand · November 27, 2018, 6:33am

Smells like victory

Jacksprat-the-venture-co · November 27, 2018, 6:34am

Because the idea for peace was built upon the premise of defeating the Alliance.

Plan A: Hold the Nlevs hostage so you can mine Azerite and work from a position of power.

Plan B: Tish hit the fan. Eliminate the Hordes closest giant threat.

Aedren-anvilmar · November 27, 2018, 6:36am

But why would we surrender to the Horde? If Teldrassil is anything to judge by, the only thing we’d get for it is a fiery death. Sylvanas turned the war with the Alliance into a campaign of genocide and extermination. You don’t surrender to an enemy that you are convinced will simply kill you for the trouble.

Also, I just want to say, can you really blame the Alliance for hating the Horde, if their plan for world peace involves the Alliance’s defeat and subjugation?

Darethy-ravenholdt · November 27, 2018, 6:39am

We’re at year 33 since the first war, at this point we’ve tried to establish peace on both ends by means of defeat and subjugation multiple times now.

Judging by lost honor, they would have no choice. The Alliance is relying on peasant levies to win it’s ground wars now…which is to say, they aren’t winning ground wars anymore at all. So pretty much only the Kul’tiran navy can save them.

Aedren-anvilmar · November 27, 2018, 6:41am

Look, not to get back to military logistics, but most medieval armies historically were made up of peasant levies. That wouldn’t be unusual; there’s an awful lot more peasants then professional soldiers in medieval societies. It doesn’t necessarily mean the Alliance is close to defeat.

Besides, I thought with the siege of Zuldazar, the Alliance is going to have the upper hand in the war?

Okagha-blackhand · November 27, 2018, 6:42am

To be fair, they were using peasants in Wrath with the Westfall brigade. I think that’s also why the Defias took over again in Cata.

anon18585841 · November 27, 2018, 6:43am

You are correct.

The First Defias was left overs from having a Black Dragon as your second, who kept Stormwind divided and weakened.

The Second was built upon the issues of Varien conscripting en mass.

Also, welcome to the forums, Aedren! Apologies you have to join into a conversation that is very spicy and buzzword riddled, though you don’t have to fear, Darethy is a very decent person to hold a conversation with and also fair.

Serevèn-wyrmrest-accord · November 27, 2018, 6:45am

I’m thoroughly impressed, astounded even, at people’s capacity for rationalizing genocide in this thread. The piles of false equivalences and "You would too!"s are miles high. My God.

Southshore was attacked BEFORE any full scale aggression against the Forsaken.
This post is riddled with JESUS CHRIST moments. I’m stunned.

Fun way to put The Forsaken attacked and took land out of greed.

A lie, given the overwhelming evidence, and sentiment attached just before this.

“My paranoia is justified, as is the genocide I committed, because YOU WOULDA TOO YA JERK. YOU KNOW YOU WERE ABOUT TO.” Its absolutely incredible reading this. Top tier RP or delusion, I have no clue.

“Better to take land and kill innocents unprovoked than to let people prove your fear that they might be as evil as you are correct!” as my pappy used to say.