That’s hilarious. I can’t believe I never tried that. Must remember to do that next time I’m in Nighthaven.
OK, now you’re just victim blaming. Southshore did not deserve to be blighted. Full stop. End of discussion.
Wow so generous. How could anyone accuse the Forsaken of being evil? I mean they could have committed a terrible war crime, but they didn’t. Give Sylvanas a medal. And ignore the time before, in the starting zone, where they would have committed a war crime, were it not for the fact that their innocent victims escaped.
I don’t expect you to trust us, and take us out our word. Build up your borders. Fill your city with WMD’s if you want to. Just please, stop slaughtering innocent people. That is all I want.
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the only thing that saurfang agreed was that genn wasn’t punished by anduin, but how does he knows that? did he actually wanted that genn was punished? that was pretty weak to use as a reason.
I’m not sure what she does now. Her only connecting flightpath was to send you one-way to Darnassus. And… well…
(Her Tauren counterpart sends Horde druids one-way to Thunder Bluff)
Not end of discussion just because YOU don’t like it, the humans of Stormwind have been consistently aggressive to the Forsaken so of course we’re going to drive you out of our lands. Next time you attack someone, maybe you should think about how that can come around to bite your people.
You’re not innocent, and you’ve never been innocent. You expect us to play by rules you don’t, and then act shocked and appalled when we decide to actually fight you. I’m not going to hold back when you don’t, if the Night Elves had any problems about getting entangled with a war and it’s consequences to their nation perhaps they should of taken it up with the High King before their forests got sacked.
Welcome. Have a “like.” Sorry you had to join us during this particular expansion; the board used to be nicer than this.
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That’s what Blizz gave us. They told us he knows even if we have no idea how he knows.
Possibly due to his spy network? Who knows? Saurfang! That’s who!
Follow me down this logical path. As a Night Elf, the Forsaken, and the Horde, have just recently perpetrated a genocidal act against my people, at Teldrassil, a crime far worse than any you accuse the Alliance of having perpetrated. According to your logic, I as a Night Elf, and all of my people, will, hereafter, be justified in butchering every single Horde citizen we come across. Every single man, woman, and child, of any race. I can do this, because I know that the Horde would slaughter my people, given the chance. Its not even a suspicion; its a fact. They already did. They have been consistently aggressive towards us, and really, its their own fault if we decide to just kill them all.
I, personally, reject that reasoning. i will be very angry if all of a sudden my people start butchering Horde civilians. Whatever problems the Horde has, their people do not deserve to be killed en masse. You, the Forsaken, for all your faults, do not deserve to be killed in that way either. It would be wrong, no matter what you did to us.
I’m not saying the Forsaken have no cause to be suspicious, or even militant. They certainly do. But the Forsaken do not have the right to invade other countries for hypothetical future genocides. They do not have the right to kill any innocent people, regardless of number. I don’t care what fears you harbor, or what trauma you’ve endured. That does not give a moral reason to be murderers.
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Thank you. I’m having fun. Its cathartic to be able to talk about my moral indignation in a forum like this.
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Ehhhh…… They backed a group who was actively trying to exterminate the Forsaken. That is a genocidal act. The Forsaken are just better at it.
My point still stands. Prepare yourself, for my vengeance is coming /s
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And here is the divide in that logic, what I have accused the Alliance of does have an equal to Darnassus, the problem is that equal was not allowed to occur. It is frustrating because it feels like the only reason you don’t acknowledge this is because it was not allowed to happen. You say that Sylvanas shouldn’t be given a medal for not committing a war crime and I agree, she shouldn’t. But by that same logic the Alliance shouldn’t be excused from trying to commit a war crime because they failed to pull it off. Targeting civilians, including the Gilnean civilians in the starting zone is wrong, I acknowledge this.
At the same time the Forsaken were basically in a situation of win Gilneas or die, Garrosh was twisting their arm because he knew after the Wrathgate he could withdraw support and it would seal their doom. Is that great reasoning? No, not at all, but it is a reason. What is the Alliances reason? It’s not to defend the Gilneans by all appearances, the way it’s framed is that’s just an objective that sprung up along the way of humanity choosing to kill all the Forsaken and take their land to solve the Northrend crisis, because they don’t like how they look.
Of these two parties, the Forsaken are the far more sympathetic.
I don’t believe your assertion that my hypothetical future genocide is a hypothetical, i’v been given more then enough reason to believe it, and basically all that i’v been given to say i’m wrong is that we beat the Alliance back hard enough to keep it from happening so therefore we can’t be certain. Killing civilians is bad, but the Alliance has already crossed that threshold, and when a nation is fighting for its life I understand why it happens.
I don’t like Southshore, but I understand why it’s there. During the War of Thorns Night Elves were torturing Horde soldiers by slowly burning them to death, that stuff just happens when wars escalate this much.
Not to be too confrontational, but do you accept my reasoning? That if the Forsaken can justify their atrocities, then the Night Elves can now justify similar atrocities against the Horde?
I do, and that’s why I don’t bring up said torture that much unless we’re talking about moral equivalency specifically in the context of being cruel to PoW’s. When you have people defending their homes, their families, they brutalize their enemies.
Is that right? Absolutely not, but it happens.
I guess my response is just one of idealism. I do not, as a matter of principle, believe that the perpetrators of war crimes and genocidal can ever be justified, or sympathetic. Obviously I don’t think the Forsaken are sympathetic, and i really do mean it when I say that the Night Elves would be just as bad if they do the same thing. Ultimately, Azeroth, at this point, is screwed if previous atrocities can be used to justify future ones. I mean, the Humans could genocide the Orcs, the Trolls could genocide the humans and Blood Elves, Gilneans could genocide Forsaken. I don’t think that any of those campaigns would be justified, or sympathetic. And so, I don’t think the Forsaken are sympathetic. They shouldn’t be wiped out, but I also don’t think their actions should be defended.
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You know it’s funny, because of those examples, the Lordanian humans who now make up the Forsaken are undead in no small part because they refused to kill off the orcs. When they were seized by the Alliance of Lordaeron, Gilneas, Stromgarde, and the High Elves of Quel’thalas wanted them exterminated and this caused the Alliance to fracture. The ‘slave’ camps of Lordaeron were actually built to hold the orcs until the Lordanians could work out a peace treaty with Orgrim Doomhammer.
The reasons you give are the exact reasons why I back the Forsaken, and why they could potentially be a source of good on Azeroth. Of our assembled races, they are one of the few who actively tried to stop the cyclical nature of genocide.
As it stands now, about everyone in Azeroth is complicit in trying to wipe out someone.
I think that just makes it all the more tragic. As Obi-Wan Kenobi would say “You’ve become the very thing you swore to destroy!” I get liking the Forsaken. There are a lot of story hooks with that race, with the trauma of undeath, the rejection of their living families and friends, and the struggle to rebuild a new life in the ruins of their old one. I just don’t think their actions, as a political body, can be justified.
At the same time, that also has to extend to the Alliance. I don’t think their actions towards the Forsaken can be justified, and that’s why I make a distinction. Darnassus is unjustifiable…but I don’t think the War of Thorns is, I believe in Windrunners message at the start of BfA. Ours is a cycle of hatred, there is too much blood on our hands.
I think ending that war once and for all, not with extermination, but with the Alliances surrender, was a worthy cause.
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I think this highlights one of the major differences between Anduin and Sylvanas, and perhaps an incompatible one.
Anduin believes people can change. He tries to see the best in even his enemies, and feels that the best way to end an enemy is to make them a friend. He hasn’t let go of his dream of a better world, a better tomorrow, even while shouldering his responsibilities as king. The idealistic worldview.
Sylvanas doesn’t believe that people can change, at least not for the better. She feels that the Alliance and Horde will never be able to forget or forgive each other for past wrongs and slights, and therefore enmity is inevitable. The more jaded and pragmatic worldview. That was her reasoning for conquering Kalimdor, wasn’t it? She had no real hope that peace could last.
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I mean, you will have to forgive if I respond by saying that at this point, I don’t think our surrender will end with anything but our extermination, at least if Sylvanas is still Warchief.
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