Horde and AV - A History

WoW Classic WoW Classic General Discussion
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Since there is now so much confusion about AVs and changes to it. Here is a list for people who are unaware.

  1. In 1.12 you get this nerfed version of AV. It was after bg honor weekends were implemented, after most of the honor grind was done for many, and after people already had the gear they wanted.

  2. It was an ally dominated zergfest. Which was fine, that’s what AV was for at that point in time. Alliance dominated the BG.

  3. Enter TBC - AV continues to be ally dominated. Horde queue times for WSG/AB were longer except when people needed BG tokens. BOTH factions demanded/begged for an AV of old.

  4. 2.3 hits, and Blizzard makes massive changes:
    a)Buffed Warmasters/Lts
    b)Can no longer leash them and just pull general
    c)Reinforcements added to 600 first team to get to 0 or kill general wins (it was almost impossible to kill general without getting towers down now)

  5. Horde now DOMINATES AV across NA. It was legit awful, alliance had premade TS/Ventrilos on their servers and AV preform enabler was created. Meanwhile, alliance are getting frustrated.

  6. Alliance organize a successful boycott of AV. Literally the queues don’t pop. WSG/AB/EOTS fill up.

  7. 2.4 hits, Blizzard has listened. The horde cave moves back. The reason being because Galv was an excellent and amazing choke point. Due to the changes made to AV - the strat was to just let no one go beyond galv, kill the ally down to 0 reinforcements, win match and give literally 0 honor to alliance.
    a) This is NOT how AV is currently played
    b) Moving the horde cave at this point makes zero sense.

  8. The current issue is you have two factions trying to play two different games. Ally wants the 7min zerg PVE fest. Horde wants the PVP and objectives done for most fun/honor.

Realistic Solution Introduce pre 1.12 AV, release AB, and release BG bonus honor weekends. You can not and should not have the old honor system, with a pvp system that doesn’t reflect those same changes. It is irresponsible as a company/provider.

The rest of you (both horde and ally) flinging poo on these forums need to remember the actual history of the game. The problems we are facing are MODERN issues from the MODERN gamer.

It is not ally fault they premade.

It is not hordes fault if they use back door.

However, it is Blizzard’s fault for letting it continue

It is not PVP racials winning.

It is not map imbalance.

Here is what we can control as humans:

Not being toxic to each other.
Ally choosing to PVP in AV instead of trying their best to zerg around.
Horde stop using back door strat if you are.

These are the fixes needed. It is not the cave, it isn’t racials, it isn’t horde being more numerous.

You can read this old article with devs discussing that ally dominated AV: https ://www.engadget. com/2008/02/08/the-av-map-imbalance-in-patch-2-3-a-different-perspective/

And they further discuss how 2.3 made it favor horde.

Sorry alliance, but you’re just wrong about the map at this point in the game. It’s partly a you need to PVP problem. If someone wants to they can way back machine this (I can’t cause I’m at work):

http ://wow. joystiq. com/2007/10/01/does-the-horde-really-win-every-battleground/

That’s Kalgon saying ally totally dominated AV.

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Lets make it happen!

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Let’s take it a step further. Let’s all transfer to PVE servers and not queue bgs at all. Let none of them pop!

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I say move the cave back, so when Alliance continue to lose they can move onto the next excuse.

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Or just change the av version

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^^ this 10char

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Horde: “#nochanges!”
Also Horde: “omg we don’t win this bg 100% of the time something needs to change!”

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I guess you didn’t read the thread using actual data from patch notes/developers.

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It’s obvious the only reason ally are losing is because the real pvpers moves on to wsg since it’s super easy to find paladins to PvP with horde is much harder to find healers willing to PvP.

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Well said, just a few things i would change and you got wrong.

  1. You forgot AV prior to AV 1.12. AV 1.5 was totally discounted and how the horde or alliance did well. You started at 1.12. I understand why, that is the current cesspool we are in. But the 1.12 map WAS, as you correctly pointed out a zergfest. But it was a race on both sides. Organized premade horde were able to do what organized premade alliance do now.

  2. IT IS the horde being more numerous. This i disagree completely. This IS what is causing the problem. IF horde had instant Qs we would be doing the race on both sides. Thats how 1.12 was.

  3. Your right that people are playing different games, alliance wanting the 1.12 7 min race, and horde wanting a long game. But the REASON for this difference is my second point.

People, are as you are saying, playing two different games.

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I guess, yeah, when I say imbalance I meant more that horde are not more numerous in AV. It’s 40 v 40.

Honestly, I think that horde would be fine with the 30-40min queues if it was not garbage 1.12 + premades + 7 min losses with minimal honor.

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How is it both not the map imba but also caused in part by the ability to backdoor that is only possible from the map imba?

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I’ll start this by trying to have an actual conversation having experienced this from the start. Albiet not wholesale since I never did find AV too entertaining.

  1. I personally prefer the ticket system when it comes to AV. I think it leads to more fun experiences in the BG in general. The problem with that system is that it mostly wipes the zone’s quests off of the mat in use. Is this a problem? maybe?

  2. Horde cave: As things stand now the horde can make it to Balinda before the Alliance do. Does it make sense that one faction should be able to make it into the opposing faction’s territory without confrontation? This also leads into how you can defend IBGY since its such a short run back to your front most GY where the Alliance gets kicked back to their cave (just about its actually a negligible difference between that and SPGY in this reference). This allows unmitigateable defense of horde’s first two towers by proxy.

  3. GY advantages: If we look at the designs that both side’s GYs have horde have multiple escape paths from them as alliance is (always) bottle necked into them. SPGY can easily be surrounded from 3 accessible sides, 2 of which can not be fought locally and must be dealt with from the 3rd option which is still a solo exit. SHGY only has the single exit which is easily flooded with AoE if you rez there. No tower cover on either of these locations. Our only hope is SFGY and that would involve an almost fatal fall for it’s second exit plan. IBGY has a short drop as the main exit and still a path that is guarded by a choke and tower defense. FWGY is completely open ended so while there is no cover an assault can come from any angle. To me it feels kinda neutral even though its really close to horde base and cave respawns are also really close.

More than happy to discuss thoughts on any of these topics without flaming.

should the backdoors be patched? yes.

should we alliance overcome the disadvantage? also yes.

If we can group to become better then we can overcome but this involves people wanting to do so.

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To take it a step further let’s all end our subscriptions and then go outside.

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I’ve been flying home built drones a lot lately. It’s pretty fun.

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Eh, not even interesting. The next 3 excuses are already laid out. Wed need at least 4 changes to get something F R E S H

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OP: “Don’t be toxic”

Also OP: “Sorry Alliance…”

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Initiating Actual Conversation Mode.

The problem with AV. So we are going to set aside all comments on racial abilities, all comments on population imbalance, etc. The problem is you have a map that was designed with a ton of stuff that is missing.

Alliance - You cannot just rush Drek as most of the the paths people do this, they would get blown up from mines.

Horde - You cannot rush Balinda as the Field of Strife had troops.

In essence you have to look at it from the 1.5 view, and ask was it better balanced then? As you start removing items, npc, npc strength, etc, then you start to realize this, then it makes sense to make some changes to the map.

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Thats still not why Alliance loses.

You lose, because you lose the team fights. Figure out why that is.

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Reading is Fundamental? Or you need me to re-paste how I addressed that:

Your right that people are playing different games, alliance wanting the 1.12 7 min race, and horde wanting a long game. But the REASON for this difference is my second point.