Honor system isn't defensible

[Derka-wyrmrest-accord (Derka)]

I seem to remember BC had a pretty decent gearing system, anyone remember the details of that? My memory may be off since it was a long time ago and I was still a newb in those days, but I was able to get a full set just by casually doing BGs. Probably not BiS lol, but it was something? Anyone remember how it worked?

TBC was when Honor became a currency that we spent on PvP-exclusive gear, so you eventually could have enough to flesh out an entire set.

That gear had resilience on it though, making it less than great for PvE endeavours.

[Zonkabonk-blackrock]

Things shouldn’t be accessible to everyone. You should miss out sometimes and not get things that you aren’t able to get. You should want those things and fail.

[Krackillz-sargeras]

I think it’s more of a rant from someone who thinks it should be accessible to everyone, not that they don’t want to put in work, they just don’t have the ability to nolife to R14 and that shouldn’t hinder them.

I’m not saying anything should change, just what I see here. I, for one, liked the ranking system, except for the cheating that was done to get to the top.

It was accessible to everyone, all you had to do was go get it. The access IS there.

[Twiinkedd-moon-guard]

No-lifers unite! All your PvP gear are belong to us.

[Mogar-stormrage (Mogar)]

It was accessible to everyone, all you had to do was go get it. The access IS there.

People confuse opportunity with result. The opportunity does indeed exist for all. The entitlement attitude of the OP obviously has no place in Classic. You earn what you get in this game, and guess what: people will achieve things others never will. That’s good mmo design.

[Eloraell-moon-guard]

No-lifers unite! All your PvP gear are belong to us.

Does uniting mean talking to people? I don’t do talking. I’ll use text-to-speech in Vent.

[Sabetha-turalyon (Sabetha)]

No-lifers unite! All your PvP gear are belong to us.

Does uniting mean talking to people? I don’t do talking. I’ll use text-to-speech in Vent.

We’ll unite.

Separately.

In our own homes, far away from each other.

Over text chat.

[Automag-stormrage (Automag)]

And all of that existed in Vanilla. And guess what, PvP flourished.

#thinkaboutthesethingsbeforeyoutalk

[Krackillz-sargeras]

It was accessible to everyone, all you had to do was go get it. The access IS there.

People confuse opportunity with result. The opportunity does indeed exist for all. The entitlement attitude of the OP obviously has no place in Classic. You earn what you get in this game, and guess what: people will achieve things others never will. That’s good mmo design.

its the whole equality of opportunity vs equality of outcome thing, but in WoW.

[Zenetta-proudmoore (Zenetta)]

The vanilla PvP system was a gigantic trash heap. I had multiple high warlords in my vanilla guild and I don’t think any of them thought it was a great system either.

But, since they’re trying to make it as authentic as possible, it is what it is. That’s how it was. That’s how it will be on all the classic servers.

The people saying to go play BfA need to take a seat though. BfA sucks. BfA class design sucks. Many people may have enjoyed vanilla, TBC, WotLK etc PvP but would hate BfA PvP. BfA also has the worst PvP gearing system since vanilla. The vendor system and conquest sets that started in TBC where raiders never had the advantage in PvP was much better than the hidden scaling garbage in BfA where mythic raiders have the advantage, but you don’t know exactly how much of one and they refuse to say. They literally refuse to explain exactly how ilvl scaling works in BfA. Some dev even made a tweet that essentially translates to “don’t worry your pretty little head about it.” (twitter com/ckaleiki/status/1041878657701052416)
edit: better specifically in that hard mode/heroic/now mythic raiders never facerolled you like Naxx geared players did at one point in vanilla. The fact that they pushed rated PvP so hard to get the conquest gear isn’t something I was really a fan of and it was just as alt-unfriendly.

Legion’s template system was closer to how you’d expect PvP to be in a game where gear doesn’t matter as much, but they went about it in entirely the wrong way (and it still mattered since ilvl gave you a stat bonus…). Fixed stats that scale with ilvl and removing all customization? Then made stupid posts about how people wanted gear not to matter then complained when it didn’t, even though many people who didn’t want gear to matter in PvP also hated templates because you removed all our ability to customize our stats.

Personally, I think they should release one PvP only megaserver outside of the standard classic servers similar to beta PvP servers where PvE content is disabled and there are just vendors where you buy the PvP gear and you can freely queue for BGs as much as you’d like. It would give people who want to PvP on an equal footing the freedom to PvP as much as they’d like without the classic grind or gear inequality. Not unlike how GW2 PvP was (not sure what it’s like today). It could be all max level or even somehow give people the ability to roll into different level brackets and have vendors with all the favorite “twink gear” for that bracket as well.

[Farthir-durotan]

Wth? The high prestige items has always commanded a high time-investment and grouping up. This sounds like welfare epics. No thank you!

I am not suggesting to reduce the time it takes to reach R14. I think if you actually had bothered to read the OP, you would have understood this.

[Nimoai-dalaran]

So Blizz should change the system for “you” and anyone else who feels they are “entitled” to get rank 14 just because they work and have other responsibilities in life? o.O

/mindBoggled

I am lost for words on this OP mindset, perhaps you should seek profession help?

Maybe Classic is not for you?

I did read the entire post, and the gist of it is you want Blizz to change the entire system so that “anyone” can get this highest PvP rank, without any competition.

You simply want them to take this achievement away from the PvP community, trivialize it into nothing more than just another PvE grind of some sort with NO effort on your part regarding competing against others for the title.

Did I get this right?

[Mistwynd-lightbringer (Mistwynd)]

and needs to be changed.

No

I disagree. PvP players should have equal gearing opportunities to PvE players, otherwise PvE players are just gonna beat on PvP players.

What’s the point of the Honor system if people cannot actually gear through it?

You can get gear through it. Just not as good gear.

Frankly the entire PVP system in Vanilla felt like an afterthought. It was quite obvious that almost all of the design effort went into the PVE game and most of the endgame centered around raiding.

The goal of Classic is to recreate the Vanilla experience. A key part of that is allowing players to experience the game as it was 14 years ago. This includes the PVP honor system as it existed back then.

OP’s suggested would remove the competitive element from PVP. It would be a fundamental change from the system as it existed back in Vanilla.

Also, allowing everyone to reach Rank 14 would remove all prestige from the PVP ranks. In Vanilla, when you saw a Rank 14 player you treated that player with respect. Just like would a raider from the top raiding guild on your server.

There would no longer be any respect if everyone could get Rank 14.

[Banjaa-deathwing]

@Xarlath-area-52

@Eloraell-moon-guard

I think we’ve successfully defended Vanilla PVP.

/thread

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mBtGDYP3ilk

To this day I still do not have a clue how to get a person to turn into a specific class I want them to in that game.

[Xílium-tichondrius (Xílium)]

This goes against the spirit of what people want from classic.

[Banjaa-deathwing]

That’s seems more of an argument for PvE gearing system than anything.

The fact is that it’s statistically likely to get a good weapon from PvE as long as you do it for long enough. It is also scalable. However, is not statistically possible for more than 1 person to get Rank 14 per week, no matter how hard they try. I don’t think you understand just how limited PvP gearing is in compared to PvE.

In PvE, you can, and more than likely will have more than 1 person getting Askhandi on a server on a weekly basis. You won’t have more than 1 person reaching R14 in PvP per week ever, limiting gearing in PvP from 99% of players.

What’s more is that in terms of hours, PvP takes far more time and commitment than Naxx, all for a weapon that is still worse than Naxx epics. You can get a comparative PvE weapon much easily and much earlier than PvP, starting as early as BWL which everyone can steamroll.

I think you are making a bigger deal from PvP weapons than we have to. PvP weapons aren’t even that good, they are just needed to give a long-term motivation and goal for PvP’rs, as they are intended as an option to gear for PvP’rs ( = people who don’t PvE).

If you want to get weapons, you can still get them more easily from PvE. This suggestion is just about giving an option for people who prefer to PvP to gear that way. Both players play the same sub fee, so both players deserve to have the option to gear through whichever game mode they enjoy.

Except it’s entirely possibly to run a raid for a year straight and not see a specific item drop - because the chance isn’t stacking, it resets each time.

I have - in all of my times doing MC, on every character - never even seen a Corehound Tooth drop, let alone be able to get one (I was stacking DKP for it on my rogue)

If you PVP hard enough for long enough you WILL get R14, you may NOT get weapons from KTZ.

Your argument is invalid.

[Nightsëa-nemesis (Nightsëa)]

PvP weapons are inferior to PvE gear

You edited this? Pvp weapons are pre-Naxx bis lol

[Xcentrick-area-52]

People with a job need to be able to reach R14

why do they?

this whole attitude of everyone has to be able to achieve everything is poopie doo doo and needs to be left in retail and not implemented in classic.

[anon94200297]

Don’t feel the OP troll. Flag OP as a troll post and move on.

[Farthir-durotan]

But, since they’re trying to make it as authentic as possible, it is what it is. That’s how it was. That’s how it will be on all the classic servers.

We don’t have to repeat the mistakes of the past. With Vanilla, we have a chance to start over… with a clean slate… without any of the flaws of the past.

One of the biggest flaws in Vanilla, was the R14 grind. PvP and PvE gearing was very uneven in Vanilla, with PvP’rs not getting enough slots to compete with the PvE’rs and PvE weapons being stronger than PvE weapons.

But also, in terms of general availability. R14 are only available to just one person a week, whereas PvE content is accessible for everyone, which is obviously a massive flaw compared to PvE.

Arbitrarily restricting what is intended to be a primary means of gearing for PvP’rs from 99% of PvP’rs by limiting R14 to just one person per week, is just bad design. What’s the point of the honor system if it cannot achieve it’s intended purpose, as primary means of gearing through PvP?

That being said, I do still prefer the Honor system as a system over any other WoW system in general. Also, I think later expansion epics were too easy to get, while in Vanilla you will still at least have to work for it.

You can get gear through it. Just not as good gear.

Sorry but that’s just not mathematically possible, if you are a family man with social commitments and a job.

The game shouldn’t be putting people into an uneven position simply becaose of their social status.

All should be able to reach R14, as long as they work hard enough.

Frankly the entire PVP system in Vanilla felt like an afterthought. It was quite obvious that almost all of the design effort went into the PVE game and most of the endgame centered around raiding.

Then fix it. Be the change you want to be. We all agree the system is bad, there’s no reason not to fix it.

OP’s suggested would remove the competitive element from PVP. It would be a fundamental change from the system as it existed back in Vanilla.

I think you’re exaggerating. You’d still have to work hard to reach R14, so I don’t think so. All it would do is give more content for people who enjoy PvP. Nobody would lose anything from this. It would only be a win-win scenario for Blizzard and the players.