Holy pally isn't fun

I have been playing my hpal alt a lot recently, and have been fantastic at sniping spot healing. The vast majority of other healers, even if capable of spot healing, are focused so much on raid healing that well over half the time I snipe the single target spot heal, even if I go the slow route of using Holy Light. Sure it’s got a bunch of overhealing, but so does their raid heals. Saying that the spot heal niche is pushed out in lower difficulty / overhealing situations is not true. I’ve seen plenty of normal / heroic fights where the monk or hpriest is destroying the meters but we’re repeatedly wiping because the tank or omega vector targets aren’t getting spot healed. Their own mentality of meters over everything is pushing most casuals to make spot heals less of a priority, making it a wide open niche.

I am finding hpal a ton of fun, because the spot heal game is one I don’t often get to do, has a lot less competition, and is actively engaging because it doesn’t rely on smart heals to pick targets for me.

the existence and balancing of a healer shouldn’t revolve solely around raiding or the existence of other healers working together

far too often a healer is by themself, and should be balanced as such

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Yea that’s fair. Still sucks ~2/3 of casts and ~1/3 of the total healing still coming from ST heals and in theory are not supposed to be cast on tanks if the raid damage isn’t there to support it.

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I agree with the overall sentiment of Holy Paladin not being fun. The class is lacking depth, much of our depth in legion came from Legendaries, Artifacts and Set bonuses. The Azerite traits available to us are pretty well all just your abilities do more healing. Without any change in game play at all. On top of poor balance (many of them rely on Crit, which we don’t have enough of, and will have even less of next tier due to poor itemization in the raid, and no Re-origination array). We even have one trait (Moment of Compassion) that basically lower’s your healing, I would value a damage trait is more valuable than that one in raids at least.


On the topic of overall performance of paladins. There are a couple of issues at play here, i think the most Salient of all is the Aura row. So much of our power comes from Devotion Aura, which does not show up in any form of meters, or logs. The only way to see its value is to upload a log, then run that log through another third party website to get an approximate value of it. A lot of hoops just to see how effective you are no?

Or you can take mercy, but by doing so you get branded a padder, and ostracized by the community because it is widely known at this point devo is just always better. Which also means, if you play correctly and take Devo, you will look worse on logs and if you are someone who likes to get good logs is incredibly demoralizing because a simple talent will improve your logs substantially. But if you take mercy, your guild or other players will label you a padder, and you are being less effective. I have had some paladins even come to me just so frustrated because they feel if they take devo, they will get benched, or may as well play another healer. But if they take mercy their raid leader/guild gets upset and benches them for being a padder anyways.


I also see that sentiment (even in high-end guilds) where a tank dies, and everyone looks to the paladin, not realizing that paladins are literally the only tank that loses efficiency by directly healing the tank. Every time you heal a tank directly something is lost, yet no other healer loses anything by healing a tank.


All in all, Paladin is not in a great state for me right now, the constant debate between Mercy/Devo knowing that 10%+ of your power with devo doesn’t even appear on logs, the overall lack of depth in the core rotation making the class not feel rewarding to play. How overpowering Avenging Crusader is forcing you into melee (even if its too crowded), and if someone cooldowns over your Avenging Crusader you just feel so powerless. Because nearly 30% of your healing happens in a 20s cooldown window. Because Avenging Crusader is the only option, and so powerful if you get a mechanic during your wings, whether that be soaking a boil on G’huun or a debuff on Mythrax you lose so much of your value. The envy I get when I see other classes getting awesome new traits that do change their game play in a meaningful way, but knowing that all of the Paladin traits could not exist and we simply saw a flat % increase to healing I wouldn’t even notice. Needing crit to feel good, but not being able to get enough of it as is, and knowing we will have less in just a month’s time is demoralizing.


I don’t think in the 10+ years I have played paladin I have ever been this unhappy with the state of my class. What makes it worse is knowing that other classes are in worse shape, so I don’t expect much change. Not in the next 6 months at least. Maybe not until the next expansion. I also feel demoralized as these complaints about paladins being boring have been something myself and others brought up nearly a year ago now in early Alpha and there has been no movement on that front.

16 Likes

Yeah, Pallies are very CD and high value spell oriented compared to some. I find playing Crusaders might and focusing on dps and high value spells to be more enjoyable because I do not need to use as many healing fillers in the rotation. If a raid member is at 75% health and I do not have a proc, a shock up and they have hots on them, I would rather hit the boss to get shock off cd sooner then to spend a few globals on a HL or to waste mana on an unbuffed flash of light.

My only gripes is with the mastery and the very, very short range of our auras. Devo is still king but you have to just about be holding your teammates hands to get use out of it and we really should have our 40 yard option back for a talent to replace some of our dead options.

The other two auras are just so bad and made even worse by the short yardage of the aura. Fixing those 2 things alone would be a big improvement.

But as it stands we have tons of dead talents that see little to no use because they’re useless in nearly all pve content.

Light’s hammer
(meter padding)
Aura of Mercy
(meter padding)
Aura of Sacrifice
(useless in pretty much all content)
Holy prism
(not worth taking over other 2 options)
Divine purpose
(very niche use on one boss and I know it’s useless in mythic+)
Cavalier
(I get some people like this but I’ve never been in a situation that required 2 charges and it feels like a wasted talent space to me)

Totally forced into Bov or Bof for 99% of pve content. So maybe they can use some of that useless talent space for better options. Hell, even awakening is pretty much a dead talent too thanks to horrible rng streaks that makes it far too inconsistent to be used in any serious pve.

Half our talent choices are pretty much dead weight and our mastery is very hit or miss when an encounter has your group spread everywhere messing with your effective healing output.

Luckily that part doesn’t hurt me so bad because I find raiding to be extremely boring. I still think at the very least they need to take another look at our aura radius.

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Lights hammer has it’s uses (IE Vectis), they are just more focused on burst aoe healing. Ironically, this pads less than bestow if you can make proper use of bestow as it does 8.7% SP/s on average while bestow does 12.5% SP/s on average.

Aura of Mercy depends on the fight. You need a specific raid DTPS threshold to be exceeded to make it weaker than Devo.

Aura of Sac can be a 30% dmg reduction raidwide every 3.5 mins if you talent properly, it’s niche but really strong (unfortunately sacrifices your bubble as part of the CD). Objectively it’s the strongest raid CD in the game if you’re okay giving up your personal bubble.

So light is useful in a single encounter out of how many pve situations? Just too much to give up in the first tier for such an unimpressive amount of usage.

As for bestow I hate that one too if I’m being perfectly honest. I find getting my shock and Lod back faster far outweighs that delayed heal. But again I mainly do mythic+ content and those abilities are even more useless in that area.

Does mercy really depend on a fight? I’d wager the paladin would take the 20% 8 second DR over trickle healing to soak a deadly aoe. Again I’m not a raider I just assumed they’d be required to take devo for the extremely powerful DR it provides from activation. I know activating Mercy wouldn’t save anyone because its healing is pitiful even when boosted by our cool down.

I’d never run sac for a single moment that would require me to also give up my only means of total survival. Feels like that’s too big of an ask for an extra 10%.

The trade offs required to make those talents useful is just too big of a sacrifice I think for what they offer in return.

There is disparity with HPS because of utility. However, every class can hold their own with the following: rotation refinement, damage anticipation, proper use of CDs. If you fail at any of that, so will your heals. /thread

This sums everything up pretty damn well.

The devo vs mercy argument is honestly a pretty unfortunate situation. I’ve spoken to a few friends from here and in game who actually have had a lot of annoyances when pugging with this particular subject.

In some instances of pugging they were told they weren’t doing enough healing compared to either a 2nd Paladin who took mercy or other cohealers and get removed. Then they take mercy and are told they’re using suboptimal talents yet again.

It’s a lose-lose situation unless your in a guild that understands devotion auras actual potential. My guild generally leaves talent choices and class research up to the individual so I didn’t experience this personally. They also don’t mind padding on deep farm as long as were cruising and not struggling on anything.

Either way, the best advice I can offer is if your guild is telling you what talents you should be taking or looking through “top” logs and seeing mercy then make sure they’re looking at first kills. A ton of people who use mercy now or even in the past few months will most likely have taken devo for their first/second kills. You could also explain DRPS and show a comparison of mercy vs devo through WoWanalyzer but for those pugging they don’t have this option. There’s many that don’t even know about WoWA as well.

As for the actual gameplay, I’ve had my complaints throughout beta and nothing has really changed too much bar a few slight buffs. Gameplay feels like legion but with less interesting mechanics like Maraads or even Power of the silverhand (when relavent) which I personally enjoyed a lot. Feels like a watered down version of the spec I played last expansion. Nothing interactive, filler spell is a long cast that doesn’t produce anything interesting (either a proc or a chain to another spell so you aren’t chaining holy lights), artifact traits are mainly passive/set-and-forget, etc.

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People just dont understand healing at all and just see it as reverse DPS but thats just not how it works…

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I’ve mained a holy paladin since I started playing mid Burning Crusade. I changed to ret with holy off spec this expansion due to guild needs and still occasionally heal.

I can say that, without a doubt, this is the most bland, boring, and mechanically clunky healing has ever felt as a holy paladin.

It’s like trying to tighten a bolt with pliers instead of a wrench. Yeah it works and will probably get it just as tight as a wrench or ratchet but it’s still not really the best tool for the job.

At the end of the day, holy paladin just isn’t fun to play right now.

7 Likes

Love this new setup. Hit wings and turn into a cleric… heal through damage and it keeps you in melee range to actually use your mastery.

The spec is a shell of its former self. I main’d holy paladin from wrath to legion but I couldn’t take the gutting anymore so I switched to disc. If you played holy pally in cata, mop, even wod I don’t see how you would think the class is fun.

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It makes me so happy to see a developer finally say this.

I have been saying Holy Paladins are “cleave healers” not “tank healers” for awhile now.

Holy Paladins currently are not as fun as previous expansions, our niche is cleave healing but…

  • Chain casting very slow Holy Lights is not fun, playing whack-a-mole on the raid with such a slow heal becomes very tiersome, specially when other healers snipe the heal from you before the cast goes off.

  • Flash of Lights make us OOM fast, and is the reason why we are forced into boring chain Holy Light casting.

  • Infusion of Light is the solution to this problem right? Except that relying on the RNG of getting a critical strike for us to have enjoying gameplay is not fun. We should be fun to play outside of critical strikes, or the RNG of critical strikes needs to be taken away.

  • Our Mastery punishes the player and is far to reliant on other players and boss mechanics.

Legion Holy Paladin was fun because it was fast, we could stack crit high enough that we were guaranteed to get Infusion Procs so we were never stuck with chain casting slow Holy Lights.

In Legion Light of the Martyr had moments were it was worth using, only because of the Legendary Cloak and Artifact traits, now in BFA we have essentially lost a spell to use, lost two spells if you include the Artifact Ability.

In Legion we had Divine Purpose and Second Sunrise, procs that added to feeling fast.

In Legion we could help the raid with intense AoE healing moments because of Aura of Sacrifice and Tyr’s Deliverance. Now in BFA we are worse than Feral Druids when it comes to AoE, we feel like “dead weight” in AoE healing situations unable to contribute outside of Light of Dawn every few seconds and spamming Flash of Lights that makes us OOM.
We should not be AoE healers, but we should not feel like “dead weight”.

Devotion Aura is powerful, but not fun.

We have many useless talents, our Aura row being a good example of that now with Devotion Aura being mandatory even tho it’s not fun to use. Beacon of Faith/Virtue being mandatory for their assigned game modes, and the talent Awakening.

There are many different ways to fix these problems, but i sadly do not have faith that the required action will be taken this expansion, but just in case:

  • New Mastery

  • Give Holy Shock a 100% crit chance, or give it the Chaos Bolt treatment.

  • Make Beacon of Virtue baseline that doesn’t replace baseline Beacon.

  • Make Light of the Martyr worth using in our “rotation” or bring back Word of Glory.

  • Bring back Holy Radiance or some other change to make us feel worthwhile in intense AoE moments.

  • Fix our Talents, example: Aura row.

Thank you for taking the time to read and reply to us in the Paladin forum, i hope this discussion can continue.

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I play both resto Druid and holy Paladin. I can do pretty much the same healing on each of them.

Resto druid is great at keeping everything stable almost effortlessly with AoE and single target HoTs. When things go bad, resto druid can save the day for the masses but can’t really save a specific player who’s getting blown up. HoTs can only work so fast.

Holy paladin can do AoE and single target heals just like a resto druid but it takes more effort and attention span. Have to aim the cone and wait for players to be hurt (messes with my reflexes when I’ve been playing resto druid). When things go bad, holy paladin can save one player who’s getting blown up but can’t save the masses as well as a resto druid.

I will gladly have Devotion Aura removed from the game if it meant we could receive fun gameplay.

Devotion Aura is a burden to this spec, very powerful and completely boring.

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Light’s Hammer is worth it if it heals just two people for the entire duration without overhealing ticks. The bigger the raid, the fewer ticks it needs to be useful. The problem is that it takes too long to do its thing and you usually have enough other healers to focus on AoE healing. If you’re ever running with fewer healers for more dps and the holy paladin is able to pick up the slack on AoE healing, Light’s Hammer is a great option to take.

I do think it needs to be re-designed though. Either a castable spell with a low cooldown (and less healing to compensate) or it just gets reworked to do the same healing in less time. But that probably won’t happen as sustained AoE healing just isn’t the holy paladin niche.

I can’t agree more. the class feels so clunky and tragic compared to my mop-legion experience. It’s always been a straight forward healing spec to learn but I have never been bored with it until BFA.

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I don’t know if I can agree that Holy Paladins aren’t fun or are wildly different to the past. I can agree that Legion was better, but that’s true for most of the specializations in the game, so I’m not sure that’s a unique insight.

If Legion was an ‘A’ quality period for Holy Paladins, I would rate BFA Holy Paladin as a solid ‘B’ or ‘B-’. I mean we had some of the fewest changes out of any specialization in the game. We lost legendaries and artifact abilities, so that’s a negative. Beyond that, the only other changes were some talent reshuffling, which is also a negative overall in my opinion (removal of Lightbringer and the movement of Divine Purpose onto Beacon of Faith’s row actually removed interesting gameplay choice instead of increasing it) and a nerf to the reliability of Holy Shock (+30% crit instead of double crit), which is also a negative. It is worth mentioning that the Breaking Dawn azerite trait is a huge gain for us, especially on some of the more hectic fights in Uldir that require no stacking. It keeps Light of Dawn viable in situations where it normally would be extremely dependent on raid positioning.

So yeah, it’s a bit worse, but the sky is certainly not falling. The core spells are the same. The strategy for healing is completely the same. If it feels so radically changed to you that you need to switch specs or classes, consider that maybe you have changed instead, since it really didn’t change that much.

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