Admiral Ackbar: IT’S A TRAP!!
Do you want me to tell you that using a specific person’s argument to represent the whole is a valid counter? Cause I’m not going to do that. That one or even many “helfers” make a bad argument doesn’t make the whole notion of wanting high elves bad, you know.
So we are completely disregarding the drastic cultural shift BE’s went through?
There’s a difference between Blood Elves being the major continuation of the Thalassian Culture and pretending that culture didin’t suffer a drastic change. Why are you afraid to admiting such an obvious fact? Is because you are that afraid to give any validity to Modern High Elves as their own cultural offshoot?
I’m a BE fan, I have been since War3, and while I haven’t loved every development they have had since, one of the things I really like about them are the themes of reinvention, rebirth and survival. They are NOT the same culture they once were, that is a core theme of their whole thing, and I really think it should not be dismissed.
How is it irrelevant to point out that Blood Elven culture has changed? The point is that both cultures have changed, has High Elven culture changed more in some ways? Yeah.
Could that be explored in depth if they re made playable? Certainly; specially how their culture has evolved. But it’s like you are saying High Elves aren’t allowed to have their version of the thalassian culture (which would be colored a lot by human ones)
Are you still trying to decide which would is the MOST “High Elf” one? Utterly pointless.
What I am saying is that both BE and Modern HE culture have moved to different places, which would allow for sufficient differentiation. Why are you so resistant to this notion?
It feels like you are still stuck on “but who are the REAL High Elves” when the point I’m trying to make is that THAT aspect is the irrelevant one: Both groups have moved away from a shared origin.
It really just seems like you are downplaying the BE cultural shift to make the point that HE’s haven’t moved that far from their shared culture? Which is kinda moot given that modern HE culture is permeated by assimilation into human culture so I don’t get you overall point here.
[quote=“Softsong-aggramar, post:6703, topic:182516”]
Acknowledging their roots, and what inspired their themes and culture is not the same as disregarding their growths. Each race pulls from a theme unique to them, and it’s important to maintain those elements when furthering the fantasy it’s intended for. Blood Elf players feel they deserve the high elven themes because it’s always been a core theme to their race.[/quote]
And that’s swell until you use that argument to say that in order to prevent any “loss” of BE themes and Heritage Alliance High Elves just CAN’T be playable, you see?
So even a thing like tattoos; unused by BE’s, can’t be given to HE’s cause that’s a breach of BE heritage, even when the point is that they have a shared heritage. But not even giving HE’s the “unused” fragments is allowed.
But Nightborne can totally bask on Highborne lore and aesthetic origins even when Highborne are part of the lore. Mmm.
True, but I feel you completely miss the point of tattoos being brought up TO differentiate. It’s not “Tattoos SHOULD be a HE thing” is “tattoos Could be a HE thing” and I have given the reasons for it plenty of times already.
On the other hand, we have two groups of alliance aligned rangers living on isolation and a lot less cultural upheaval. Theoretically, the Highvale could be a lot closer to those Alleria era themes and aesthetics than any other group, and the Allerian are basically on the same boat than Alleria herself (just like 950+ years less?)
Considering that the explicitly BE tattos in concept art are far different than the ranger ones seen on Alleria, this is not true.
But if the point IS to separate HE’s from BE’s visually, why would you give BE’s tattoos, specially when they… never have had in game?
But like, this is not my issue, I could happily live with HE’s that look exactly like BE’s, yes, give BE’s blue eyes too,
But let’s be real, the whole issue about differentiation is born from the BE side wanting to preserve their aesthetics and identity.
So when the HE side was “okay then lets give HE’s tattoos then, that’s different” you lot went all “but we want tattoos too that’s a High Elf theme IT’S OURS”
So really, be honest, is there a way you see the alliance having HE’s?
No, Playable BE’s don’t have tattoos, THAT’S THE POINT.
But let’s be honest, this is about Alliance High Elves -the high elves that remained loyal to the alliance- the ones that didn’t? probably and most likely Horde RN. The want for HE is directly tied to what faction they belong, cause that’s what makes them interesting on the first place as a group: Their history and place within the alliance.
As you can see on the previous point, yeah, no. VE’s are BE’s that switched sides, so they were horde.
We want the HE’s that have always remained loyal to the alliance, so it’s pretty obvious how that is simply incompatible. And this is like, basic knowledge of why we want HE’s, the loyalty to the alliance, so pointing out the VE’s is risible.
If VE’s had been made of HE’s I’d me playing a whole different tune.
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yes they are called void elves. the only way you will ever get playable high elves is if the factions are dissolved
the reason they dont have them is because of gameplay reasons not lore ones. tattoos are not a customization for the core races(yet)
no it isnt. alliance high elves turning their backs on their people and assimilating into human culture and diluting bloodlines is the opposite of what a high elf is. traditionally they have always been isolationist xenophobes looking down on the other races. blood elves havent changed a single thing culturally in 7000 years. all they did was change an adjective to honor the fallen
there are only 3 alliance high elves willing to die for them in the faction war. the rest dont even live in alliance territory and are a part of the kirin tor which is open about its neutrality or simply live there in dalaran as exiled refugees in a neutral capacity. claiming anything beyond this is your fanfictions
it doesnt matter, they are technically alliance high elves as they share the same high elf lore minus the light skin
the reason they went with void elves is because alliance high elves are identical to blood elves. that is all there is to it. you guys just tend to overthink this
in closing if this was a reasonable request, it wouldnt require so much effort to “show” it wouldnt be harmful to add playable alliance high elves… it would typically be accepted on merits of the request alone. in the case of alliance high elves, the fact that so much effort had to be put in(as evidenced by your fanfiction art) shows that the request wasnt really suitable in the first place…hence the backlash, especially after the matter persisted after the ENTIRE anti position was validated by the devs
Just dropping in to voice my support for playable Alliance High Elves again.
Also, I might have some more High Elf art for everyone in a couple days.
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markings are pretty much tats
claiming anything beyond this is your fanfictions
so ignoring everything else they’ve done is your idea of not fanfiction?
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In all seriousness, that might be gamebreaking.
Just imagine being able to run away from any hordies trying to gank you! 
Friendly reminder that engaging the trolls isn’t helping the discussion. They’re not here to contribute to a discussion.
Mentioning potential features of playable high elves, such as /silly and /flirt emotes or a starting zone does help the discussion.
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I never said it did? I don’t even know what point you’re trying to argue here anymore.
When did I disregard or say Blood Elves haven’t grown as well? All I’ve said is that their cultural themes and aesthetics are still remain faithful to traditional High elves, not that they haven’t developed new practices over the years. During the Nightborne Quest line Thalryssa even comments on how how dedicated the Blood Elves are to their traditions, to which lady Liadrin says “We gain strength from our allies, but we have not forgotten who we are” You act as if the way the elves grow isn’t an important factor, as Blood Elves did not abandon their culture in pursuit of a new one, simply evolved with it. High Elves have thematically abandoned High elven culture for new ones.
These themes only build upon existing themes, they don’t overwrite or replace them. One of the strongest themes of Blood Elves is their fierce devotion to their customs and traditions, and past. Their very names are in honor of the high elves that perished protecting Quel’thalas. Unlike Blood Elves, one of the most defining traits of Alliance themed high elves is the fact that they’ve distanced themselves from High elven culture.
Because the more important question is how they’ve changed. While Blood Elven culture may have evolved since their High elven days, most High elven traditions are still upheld and practiced by Blood Elves. The defining trait for High elves however is that they’ve deliberately abandoned their culture in favor of others. It’s easy to simplify it by saying “Oh they’ve both changed” but that really isn’t addressing the point.
The problem is the little defining elements that make up High elves isn’t enough to separate them visually from Blood Elves. The main issue preventing playable high elves isn’t lore, it’s their visual thematic. It’s why Ion brings up these very characteristics when explaining why they chose Void elves over High elves. You’re trying to use a lore argument to justify a game design decision. The point being is if you wish to “Seperate” High elves from Blood Elves visually, taking elements from High elven lore, something heavily related to current Blood elf culture is not a good choice.
No, you’re stuck on the mindset of “Both have changed so both have no claim to it.” Which feels more like a way to deflect the fact that Blood Elves still closely resemble the High elven culture you keep trying to pull from for High elves. Something that goes against the very grain of what current High elves are currently known for, elves that have largely abandoned those cultural themes.
The argument isn’t “who’s the real High elves” the argument is who closer identifies with the traditional high elves. Blood Elves who despite their changes still honor and uphold High elven traditions, or the current High elves who abandoned it for the Alliance.
You’re ignoring the fact that one of the cultural identifers for High elves is that despite their shared heritage the current High elves have long abandoned practicing it. This is a continuously pushed narrative among the high elves we see in game, especially alliance-aligned ones. How could you justify all the High elves on the Alliance who’ve largely abandoned Thalassian culture suddenly having tattoos and returning to their old ways out of no where.
And I’ve gone over the reasons why it’s a very poor choice. You’re asking for Thalassian themes on a race you’re justifying for the Alliance because they’re different culturally.
The entire intention of Highvale was to adopt relations with the Alliance races though, which why there are Dwarves and Draenei residing there as well. Almost every single instance of Allianced-aligned high elves has something to do with acclimating into it’s culture in one way or another. And I can tell you that this isn’t a coincidence in any shape, way or form, but a reoccurring and consistent theme.
That has more to do with the difference between the magisters, and the far striders, not between blood elves and high elves. After all Alleria was the original Ranger-general of the Farstriders who still exist in the Horde.
The fact that Blizzard hasn’t bothered to include a feature that is supported lorewise among Farstriders isn’t an argument on why it should never be added at all. Rommath has runic tattoos, but we don’t see Blood players having that option, but that shouldn’t suggest that it shouldn’t be possible.
I’m glad we agree on this, as I’ve always seen the best solution as a compromise that both sides gain something from. One of these options being helf options through void elves, and blue eyes on blood elves.
Well the problem seems to be duality in the request of justifying High elves by claiming to make them different from blood elves by using a theme traditionally found in a culture they’ve supposedly shed off in favor of the Alliance. The request for “tattoos” wasn’t made solely as an idea to differentiate them from Blood elves, it was specifically chosen to harken back to the traditional farstrider theme with the High elves. Farstriders are the closest you’ll get to the original high elves, as they’ve maintained exact same ways, and traditions as their forbears.
Unfortunately the blood elves as a playable race are the chosen analog for players to play High elves. This is why you were given void elves, as they are considered a “flavor” of High elves according to the Devs. You wanted a compromise, Blizzard gave you one. As you’re clearly playing one it seems to have been an acceptable trade off for most players.
The thing is, not all of them are trolls. Theyre okay to debate the idea of High Elves. You can spot the differences between them easily. I dont mind talking to some of the antis.
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Which is why I specifically said to not engage with the trolls. I’m happy to discuss and debate antis who have good faith counter arguments.
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And not all of the trolls here are against high elves, and maybe don’t encourage those either.
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It is only trolling if an argument is not presented
For example, if you say ‘we want the high elves that never left the alliance and are still loyal’
And i respond with ‘there are only a few individual actual alliance high elves, as evidenced by only 3 reporting for duty willing to risk their lives for the alliance in the faction war. Your definition of ‘loyalty’ is flawed’ it is not trolling. But because you lack a counter example you label it trolling. Which it is not
Just because Blizzard doesnt use everyone from a race for an expansion doesnt mean there are only three of them. They have helped in major events in previous expansions where they had more members and full regiments of just High Elves.
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The thing is a lot of them have already heard the points and disagree or refuse to see the reality of the situation.
Case and point. They have their own way of viewing the lore and at this point in the discussion it is trolling to continue to bring up points they’ve already been refuted on, as much as they want to tell you they haven’t.
You’re not wrong though, some of them do have valid discussion, but you can’t ignore a solid number of them also pull this circle argument daily. They’re set in their ways and like Licynia said, they’re not here to discuss, they had their discussion and drew their line in the sand, they’re here to derail.
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Those appearances were always in the context of dalaran. Of the kirin tor helping the factions with existential threats as evidenced by the kirin tor npcs that always accompany them. And the one time they appeared without this context was to help the horde in quelthalas
There is no alliance high elf army. Just the sc which lives in a neutral city. They have a long association with dalaran, not the alliance, which they put first. They wouldnt even exist if the sunreavers never established a relationship with the horde
Yeah, but your counter arguments have been debunked several times, and yet you repeat those same debunked arguments. It as this point that I can’t talk to you if you’re not willing to listen.
If you present a new argument, that’s fair. But repeating the same wrong arguments over and over again means we’ll just go in circles like a merry go round.
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Thats fine. I dont post to get a response, but im not leaving things unchallenged
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you know it dawned on me that void elves were such a bad decision, not because their lore was negligible, not because they are blue with tentacles, but because the devs went around the lore we asked to have access to, the lore of the alliance high elves, and instead gave us blood elves. you cant make up the level of disrepect that one decision revealed.
in fact, someone else mentioned that we likely only got void elves because the devs needed to figure out how to get the night elf skeleton for nightborne on the horde. so skele swap with weird features. and dont even bother to give us the lore we asked for. i mean, they coulda made our high elves into void elves so we’d at least have their lore. nope.
oddly enough, my void elf characters have grown on me though i’d drop most of them in a heartbeat for something better.
There is no one race with a full army. Thats the point. Every race sends troops to make up the Alliance. Same goes for the Horde. How many High Elves friendly to the Alliance would it require for you to say them to actually matter? 60? 70? We see way less than that for Void Elves and yet theyre a viable group. All the High Elves that are not Blood Elves, are that way because they had strong enough ties to the Alliance to not join their kin. Theres a lot.
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