All I have to say is this. If you think today guilds can get by without
CC against the hardest bosses. Look into the story Of Methods
world first Jaina kill. They used Shadow Priests to mind control
adds while fighting Jaina.
Different gameplay is different. Mobs scale on live. An even level mob on live isn’t supposed to be the same difficulty as an even level mob in vanilla. They are fundamentally different design philosophies. In fact, the fastest I leveled in beta was while fighting tons of green mobs in exactly the same way we fight auto-scaled even level mobs on live right now because they can be mowed over. The difference is predominantly in the flexibility of player experience and choice about how to have that experience. Where on live there’s no way for a player to push the envelope of what content they should be doing, i.e. they can’t go fight higher level mobs. In Classic I can kill a mob 4 levels higher than me and it’s very tough to do, not mechanically, but just the margin for error is very slim and rng resists/misses can results in me getting killed or having to run away and reset it. Or I can go the other end of the spectrum like I mentioned above. That gradient of options that’s often varied by the diversity in mob levels and quests in a zone result in varying up how a player spends their time and the types of fights they’re having. In short, if you’re comparing an even level mob in Retail to an even level mob in Classic you’re not having an intellectually honest discussion about the topic. You’re effectively dumbing it down so much that any value in comparing the two examples is lost.
To be honest, that is a niche example and whilst not a necessity greatly reduces the difficulty of the encounter as you remove a whole mechanic whilst also not having to waste dps killing additional mobs.
Vanilla tended not to require CC for bosses either. It’s pretty much a given mechanic from WoW’s inception that 99% of bosses are immune to CC.
People were referring to CC on regular trash, which in all fairness is still a practice that is done today in higher M+.
A World First guild killing a boss on the hardest difficulty trying to be the 1st Jaina kill using any and all advantages they can think of is a pretty big outlier imo.
Yeah I agree. Bosses in dungeons and raids these days feels more like whack-a-mole of dodging things rather than just playing a mmorpg. It’s like blizzard is constantly trying to one up themselves with over the top encounters. For me it just gets old. If I wanted a dark souls experience I would play darks souls and not world of warcraft.
I don’t like to learn mechanics, i have no time or will for that, thankfully my guildmates explain me everything while we are on the run. But get a guide and learn mechanics it’s like doing homework, and my days of school are already left.
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I just said that player strength was lower, not game difficulty higher.
If you choose to interpret that different that is fine.
Live =/= Classic. They are so vastly different that they might as well be different games. I don’t think anyone is saying otherwise.
But just to say “Classic was harder because people didn’t know how to play” is just a half truth, and that is what I was responding to.
Yes, Classic is mechanically much, much easier than Live. People are kidding themselves if they think otherwise. But there are other things to take into account.
You know you don’t have to read a guide. Most mechanics in modern WoW are homogenized so you know what to expect when you see them.
I started to make M+ like 4 months ago. The last time i did a dungeon or raid before of that was in WotLK.
fun fact cataclysm brought back the return of cc. I remember one of the complaints I seen a lot of was heroics taking to long to complete. actually kinda liked them being a bit harder.
That’s not what I mean, what I mean is that player strength isn’t lower. It varies. It can be a very similar experience or it could not be, it depends what level of mobs you choose to fight. A single even level mob in vanilla is intended to be a challenge. It’s not intended to be a challenge in BfA.
That’s kinda my point. I’m not trying to dispute the point that “classic was harder because people didn’t know how to play” because it was a half truth. I’m disputing the entire idea that vanilla was hard. It wasn’t. It’s still not in Classic. It was different sure, but even at the time WoW was a far more casual friendly game than EQ, which was the big predecessor. It wasn’t a harder game, it was a simpler game. And I’m not saying that as a bad thing. There’s a lot of unnecessary complexity in Retail. But to describe vanilla as ‘hard’ is the wrong descriptor. It wasn’t in any way, shape, or form harder. Things took longer, there were less conveniences, classes had more unique elements, players had more agency over meaningful diversity via talents/gearing, I could go on describing things that were different, but hard isn’t on the list anywhere.
That’s a bit of a break! Trust me though, you’ll get used to it. I was the same after spending a lot of time just focusing on casual PvP.
They have pretty recognisable patterns though so it’s pretty reasonable to pick up on when you get to doing the content a bit.
Cataclysm release Heroics were my favourite iteration of difficulty for casual content. It was a real shame when they nerfed it after all the complaints ![:frowning:](https://d38bqls1q93fod.cloudfront.net/en/wow/images/emoji/twitter/frowning.png?v=6" ":frowning:")
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But, they themselves (Method), said they didnt think they would be able
to pull it off without using the mind control.
I’m not sure what you are meaning here. Obviously it can vary, much like if you went back to a lower scaling zone in Live.
But if you are talking even level mobs it’s clear that the strength of your character is lower on beta than on Live.
I know that it is the design of Classic vs BfA which is my point. Even level BfA mobs aren’t intended to be remotely threatening to you at the appropriate level, where as in Classic you weren’t a mighty hero who slays dragons yet, you were an adventurer who found equally levelled mobs just as threatening.
But yeah, I agree with what you’re saying. Obviously I am merely getting my point across wrong. My bad.
It’s a hard fight, I’m not surprised that is the case.
They had a similar situation with stacking Rogues against Zul where they wouldn’t have been able to do the fight without using the immense AoE to single target burst that they grant being able to help them push through the first phase early.
The mechanic was never a requirement of the fight though.
The fight doesn’t just say “sorry you don’t have a priest, come back and try again later”
Whilst not Mythic my guild does the same thing on Heroic, but we have very limited Priest players (1 heal + 1 dps) if for some reason they are unable to make it we simply have to kill the marines and throw the bombs off the ship as the mechanic requires instead of simply using MC to throw the adds off.
My point there was that comparing that specific thing is meaningless because people aren’t intended to level up fighting even level mobs like they do in BfA. Trying to compare a character versus an even level mob in Vanilla versus BfA isn’t comparing Apples and Oranges, it’s comparing Apples and an Apache Helicopter. People like to point at even level mob comparisons to argue that vanilla was harder when it just shows that they get confused and conflate arbitrary ranking systems because they don’t understand the numbers only mean something in context of the experience.
Edit: Though I get your position, it’s not so much that you’re getting your point across wrong as it is other people aren’t smart enough to understand the distinctions being made, they see the numbers and start pretending that somehow equivocates to difficulty. Which is why I’m very leery and point it out when even level mobs and how hard the content is come up together.
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![:+1:](https://d38bqls1q93fod.cloudfront.net/en/wow/images/emoji/twitter/+1.png?v=6" ":+1:")
Yeah fair point bud. It is a dangerous game comparing two vastly different systems, and you’re right people can get too caught up in one or the other and disregard the other factors that are in place which can cause confusion.
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I’d love to see all these people start BWL. LOL.
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I like the slower pacing of them. As much as I like seeing the big numbers and the gotta go fast of M+, I much preferred when it was kind of a tactical thing of okay sap this guy, sheep this one, sleep this one because you’re the only one who can. When a patrol sneaks up on you it’s actually life threatening rather than dps going “ooooh more numbers”
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So it literally took you all day to find a boss to compare to modern dung bosses, and thats the best you could come up with?
He summons trash adds that have to be aoe’d down (how many times have you used that as a negative about modern dungs in this thread?) and has a damage aoe (again, how many times have you used that as a negative against modern dung, called it a “gear check mechanic”).
Seriously, just call em what they are, trash grinds with tank’n’spank bosses.