Just glancing at some of the comments here about dungeon difficulty.
The only thing that made classic hard was keyboard turners who clicked. The base going back to classic will mostly be key binders with a vast understanding of how the ancient game plays.
It won’t be an issue outside of the various gear checks that are in place with a few upper tiers of the game.
Classic felt hard because subpar players made it hard in my honest opinion.
Well then. Hope you can compete, and vet the people you’re letting into your key well.
that and threat was harder, and pulling extra packs was death. where as now you just pull the room and AoE them down
I wont say classic was hard, but it was less forgivig
I can and i do. The option are there for you to succeed if you are willing. RIO isnt some demon, its a tool and nothing more. The game has had some form of this for years. Nothing new
Personally I think how dungeons are in Classic is completely a product of the environment it is in. The game is so vastly different to the modern game, the dungeons are just one aspect of that.
The way that live WoW is currently would not allow for a similar experience in the dungeons as the culture and the expectations have changed. We saw this in WotLK and with the implementation of dungeons in Cataclysm.
WotLK developed the whole “go go go!” style of dungeoneering with easier dungeons, when Cataclysm came around and they wanted to slow down the pace, make CC more of a requirement and trash more deadly the community cried out against it.
In Vanilla we knew we put in the time and the effort to receive rewards, we knew we wouldn’t always receive those rewards either. It was not only common, but expected to have to run a dungeon a few times before receiving anything.
But today the game is results orientated, we expect rewards because rewards are handed at us from here there and everywhere. Today the run is a means to an end, not the journey itself.
You can’t fixed that mentality in the current game without changing the current game from what it is today.
Wierd, i do all this when playing Mythic+.
Sometimes people don’t even try them and don’t realize how this is so important.
I think the extra knowledge and no doubt dozens of addons made for threat will remedy that issue when it launches.
Outside of a few dangerous areas in certain dungeons this will depend on the classes your group has on hand when things go sideways. I’ve recovered from some absurd things back then but it deff required well timed cc of the extras without dotting them up.
I could see it going either way as I’ve had exact same spot accidental pulls that I’ve survived and died to. But the caliber of players I had with me was different so the outcome was different.
Only on certain weeks when mythic+ is concerned. Just because you can stack bursting doesn’t mean double digit stacks are cool or always survivable =)
Can’t wait for Tuesday should be exciting.
I can agree with this.
Whilst quite correct that player knowledge was at an all time low I don’t think it has everything to do with it.
A lot of the difficulty was not because dungeon difficulty was high, but merely that player strength was at an all time low.
The tank wouldn’t be able to control and survive through a large pack, and the healer would run out of mana if that happened.
The pace was slowed down much as the world content it.
In live you can easily kill 5-10 mobs your level without much difficulty. In Classic you could only expect to kill ~2.
Mechanical difficulty was at an all time low, but relative strength was a completely different topic.
So, you just want bosses to be easier?
Trying to be generous here with things, but dungeon combat boils down to let the tank pull, see which target has sunder on it. Everyone single target that mob. Mages poly whatever isn’t getting attacked. As a hunter, which I have a level 30 of in the beta right now, I mark bosses but otherwise I arcane shot every 6 seconds and put serpent sting on the mobs every 15 seconds. Both of those I do when I have the mana because without a pally in the group giving me BoW I simply can’t do that most of the time. Other than that I autoattack, which the bulk of my time is literally spent doing only that. The APM are so low it’s silly. It’s not remotely challenging.
I’m enjoying the beta, but I’m enjoying it because of non-mechanic things. Specifically it’s awesome to run around in a world and see the same people, to make relationships, to interact and get to know people. I’ve had people non-stop messaging me to come do dungeons with them, a side effect of being one of the few alliance that are capped out. I know every person above 25 on the server because I’ve grouped with them. We’ve run on foot from Menethil to SFK together. We’ve helped each other out with elite quests. It’s something that’s gone from retail that I miss, a lot. Far more than I would have thought before I played the beta. But my enjoyment of Classic has absolutely nothing to do with dungeon mechanics being hard. They’re not. They’re braindead easy in comparison to retail.
Edit: I just want to add, that lack of complexity isn’t problematic though. I almost feel like on Retail they design things with the intent to complicate the fight so much that it’s hard to keep up with everything going on. Like that’s literally the design strategy. DBM (and other addons) warn of us mechanics, so they need to add something to make it harder and harder and harder to keep track of everything that’s happening. It’s a neverending battle that results in them adding complexity for complexities sake and it’s not engaging design.
The things that make Classic WoW dungeons interesting is that the characters that are running them are under powered for the instance. Take a weak party in to any instance, and you’ll get an interesting run.
Today, though, it’s the opposite. Folks reject weak players, people don’t want interesting experiences because dungeons are a means to an end.
In Classic WoW we only tolerated them because when you were powered up over an instance, there was another one to rush off to and do to get stronger, so, we end up with these fond memories of “gee all of those ones in Classic were just the greatest!”, and it’s not quite true. Folks didn’t systematically run lower level instances simply because their time was better spent running higher level instances that dropped gear that would better the character.
Outside of scaled M+'s, it’s very hard to find a weak party for a dungeon today.
Quote for the true.
Perhaps at first, but in groups I was with, especially once tanks began getting into T2+, would often just charge into each room trusting their healers to keep them up while dps killed everything. This is partially how the 45 min strat run began.
Wait until someone introduces Raider IO to Classic. People are going to freak when people start posting to chat they are checking Raider IO.
Yup I know. I miss the old ones.
I know. My other posts talked about how we only see that in high key M+. Some people want to see more than mindless chain pulling in normals.
With the unlimited player pool of cross realm and so many gear sources its really hard to actually run m0 at the appropriate item level.
Right now all 5 members “should” be 355ish for m0.
But instead at least 2 or 3 will be 400+ and the place just evaporates.
Really, with cross realm everything is done at an overgeared level.
Heroic pugs should be 385ish and most are 395 or 400+.
M+10 should be the same 385ish for all 5 members yet tons want 400+.
That’s where I have to disagree.
Someone who sits there fiddling with their bars looking for the ability to click or using the keyboard to turn and run out of an aoe is the exact reason things were harder. As someone who healed quite a bit in vanilla when I wasn’t on my rogue I had the pleasure of actually running out of mana alot due to people not reacting to the stuff that was happening. Their response times were abysmal and in turn it made my job harder because I had to use more resources to make up for their ability.
Just some examples of things I experienced back then.
A dps mage that accidently pulls off the tank while they have their main taunt on cd and proceeds to keyboard turn to run away while the mob has already hit them 2-3 times then when they finally rotate around they use blink. Where a mage who used their mouse to turn and blink was never touched.
Or when mobs run up to a tank only for them to rotate with a keyboard and get smacked from behind numerous times at the expense of your valuable mana bar.
People playing the way I mentioned above was a very big deal in terms of difficulty. While some people who clicked managed to line up with their next gcd most would take twice as long to make the same decision and in turn do effectively less overall and prolong encounters.
It had a very real impact on the difficulty of the content you were doing. The game itself outside of maybe naxx wasn’t hat hard. But when you add in a ton of people who played like that with bad computers and poor internet choices you ended up with a player made difficulty issue That plenty mistook for the game being hard.
The game should be entertaining though regardless. I just tend to remember the more negative things that annoyed me when I played it and try to point out that the difficulty itself was player made.
Mainly because groups almosr have to try to have all 5 members be at the apprlroate gear level.
That m0 group you want to push to +10 should be 355ish but easy world gear and titanforging and you have 400+ people in everything.
That is what I was saying “player knowledge was at an all time low”.
People didn’t know how to play the game which made it hard.
However, I do not believe that is the only reason. As mentioned in my above post. Whilst mechanical difficulty was significantly lower in Vanilla, player strength was also very low.
You can easily see it by simply walking a character up to a mob and watching it damage you.
The damage difference between a Vanilla mob and a BfA mob is leagues apart. That is compounded with the speed you can kill them in return on live.
Our damage output is increased, our damage intake reduced, and our tool kit more vast.
Apologies then.
I do agree the difference in strength is vastly different to today’s standards. I still believe we will see a huge decree across the board about things that were once seen as difficult despite character strength.
The knowledge and ability to exploit mobs via kiting and other tactics will make lots of things a bit more trivial.
For sure, we’ve just gone from playing 3D chess back to playing chess, but now we know the setups and how to “en passant” whilst the AI hasn’t improved at all.