Back in August I posted about this in a thread and got yelled at but it turned out to be true.
It’s just info for the dev I do think he’s probably trying to figure out how to solve WW monk but could use more maths
In order to fix WW, they need to create scenarios where haste actually allows us to create more spenders and not just CDR or whatever.
Builder spender classes like destro or shadow priest scale well because their haste allows for more resource generation which results in more spenders, and these also benefit from the other secondary stats.
Probably one of the easiest changes would be to remove the CD from fists of fury and then make it chi dependent and then give us more ways of getting chi that scale with haste and procs.
The CDR was probably intended to create this kind of effect in a more “smoothed out” manner but it actually doesn’t work the way it’s intended to and needs a change.
I think you are forgetting SEVERAL interactions that are the result of Haste; not just increasing the value of Fists of Fury.
Haste also affects the chance that Glory of the Dawn can proc; which also refunds a chi every time it happens.
Also haste also affects energy regeneration which affects Tiger Palm can be cast. Yes this has ALWAYS been the case, but by increasing the cost from 50 energy to initially 60 but lowered to 55 by Inner Peace, the value of haste is increased to allow for a slower pace to be sped up.
Haste also affects our auto attacks, which in turn increases our chance to have Dual Threat to proc.
So saying Haste is just versatility 2.0 is far from true. There are far more interactions that you seem to be forgetting that gives haste a fair amount of value. Even in pre-patch we did have haste values in the 40% range with Crit and vers/mastery not far back.
Also, hasted PPM effects, which we have a number of both in the base class and in the Conduit hero tree.
Speaking of conduit, Haste directly does allow more spenders in the conduit window as you request, because of how the shortened base CDs and the CDR effects of our abilities feed into each other. Executing a conduit unity within with and without a major haste buff like PI or lust is night and day.
My overall point remains, these effects are marginal compared to the output of fists of fury and hastes effect on Fists of Fury.
Since the majority of the damage comes from the interaction with that spell, its essentially the same as versatility for it since haste increases the damage of it in the same way that vers does.
The additional chi and energy provided by having 35% haste vs 15% haste is not going to net you significant number of casts of Fists of Fury or any other spell for that matter to make a difference – thats kinda why WW is in the situation its in and hence the post
20% additional haste results in multiple additional casts. 15% to 35% will result in about 17% more ability casts over a duration. There’s all sorts of feedback effects going on as well as the direct scaling on FoF from mb. More gotd means more acclimation stacks increasing all damage, more reset opportunities for FoF, more chi refunds from the gotd proc itself. Etc.
The direct scaling factors are less than half of the value of haste for us right now.
Scaling is not about absolutes, its about relatives.
For this, lets just assume that all secondary stats convert to the same % (this is a close enough approximation for this discussion).
In order to get that 20% haste, you had to give up 20% damage on all your abilities.
If you are only netting 17% more casts, then had you done 17% more damage on each of those casts instead, it would amount to the same damage done.
If 20% haste only nets you 17% more casts which is approximately 17% more damage done, instead gaining 20% damage from crit/vers would be 20% damage for the same stat budget.
So, the interactions have to make up for that 3% difference and then some to be considered “superior”.
The issue is that even if you dont stack haste, people with crit/vers still have those interactions provided by haste (albeit at a smaller rate, but they still exist). Then when you factor things in like this week’s orb affix and heroism or power infusion, this is the same as if your character suddenly gained a massive amount of secondary stats which are directly contributing to those haste related interactions without having to stack any haste at all.
This is where the relative becomes important, because you have to take account the difference in the number of these interactions with high haste relative to low haste, and whether that difference is significant enough in light of the loss of increased damage done by using crit/vers instead.
The fact is that the difference is just not enough, and thats one reason why WW is in the problematic state that it is in. (This scenario really describes scaling at a given ilvl).
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For scaling as stat budgets increase, the issue becomes that the change in the amount of damage and interaction damage relative to other classes is smaller.
Like, even though we get more stat budget, and even though we have more interactions (which are nearly capped if you think about it due to already reaching haste diminishing returns in the first season), even if you get more crit / vers as the expac goes on, SO DO OTHER CLASSES.
So now we have to consider the differences in the amount of interactions and their damage for a ilvl 639 monk relative to a 684 monk and whether that difference amounts to enough compared to the same relative differences that other classes experience as their ilvl increases to 639 to 684, and with current design, that increase for monk is less than for other classes.
this statement is only remotely accurate if you consider 20,000 points of haste (~30%) close to 6000 points in mastery (~30%) or 6000 points in vers (~7.75%) or 6000 points in crit (~20%)
these are close to actual end game stats ~636ilvl.
660 is 94% of 700, almost within the margin of error of being the same, 660 is 84% of 780, but you won’t be stacking pure vers so if we take the average of 700 and 780 (740) as a crit/vers build then it’s 89%.
That’s already almost a 1 to 1 ratio in terms of approximation, and there are diminishing returns on top of that for stacking more haste so the conversion gets worse and brings it in line with your other secondary stats even more
But like this doesnt really matter – Obviously the spec is still suffering and instead of nitpicking that, we should focus on seeking the changes needed to fix the problem.
As long as WW’s spenders are cooldown-bound, it will continue to experience this problem.
In an infinite resource scenario, you just cant use spenders anymore because you are time-limited by the number of GCDs to reduce those cooldowns via BoK, and haste does not reduce this time limit enough to make a good scaling class.
WW AoE is suffering because of the globals needed to generate resources its not possible to sustain the AoE damage, likewise, you have to use Single Target abilities in AoE to generate Chi and to proc dependencies, we have no reliable AoE chi generator (maybe they should add that? Typically most classes gain resources faster in higher target count scenarios.)
Look at ret, as long as they have holy power, they can spend it. Haste reduces builder cooldown and increases resource proc rate.
Look at war, as long as they have rage, they can spend it. Haste increases melee attack speed, rage generation, and proc rates.
Warlock, soul shards, spend it. Haste reduces cast time of builder, more frequent resource procs.
Shadow Priest, insanity, spend it. Haste increases resource generation.
The primary reason why WW is failing to scale is because they are hard capped on their spenders regardless of being at the maximum possible haste since there is a GCD floor.