In the beginning, yeah, later on ahe tortured and inprissoned thousands of thousands. Thats not in any case better as odyn.
Odyn atleast works for Azeroth savety, do you really think helya have the same goal in mind?
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This is dangerous logic.
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Its not sexist when both men and women are treated the same.
Helya was attacking innocent people and ranting the entire time. People who didnt wrong her. Apparently by your twisted logic no one is apparently allowed to touch her.
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Conceptually, if there would be necessary effort placed into the writing, such topics could lead to interesting stories.
But the execution is not suitable. At best we had like a story like with red dragons, for example, when Alexstrasza preserved Bolvar yet turned his existence into non-stop misery. Or Rheastrasza for the goal she described as
Our work is, after all, for the benefit of future generations of black dragons. Her sacrifice was necessary.
did stuff like
I forced her to lay eggs, then I performed experiments on them. Over, and over, and over again.
Third Sample: Implanted Eggs
Nyxondra is being held against her will. She is hidden from her brood, right in the middle of their breeding grounds. She lays eggs, but they will be taken away before she can see them hatch.
…
Take Nyxondra’s eggs, and bring them here. You will need to beat Nyxondra into submission before you can take them.
So, some call the red dragons benevolent and “good”, but they were also called “treacherous kind” who would do however cruel things for their agenda. “Her sacrifice” is not really her, as Nixxondra was forced to go through all of this, just a “sugar coating” from the faux goblin.
this is for the good of the black dragonflight. We are here to redeem them, not to hurt them. This is but a step in their recovery.
We will remake the black dragons as they were intended to be: the warders of the earth.
But that is a side quest line, which not many people did, and for what it is, that is a good story IMO because it presents something to think about: at which point “for the good”, becomes “not worth it”. Or, “who defined what is good”. Or, “if you chose that path to good, wouldn’t the seeds planted on the path grow into something that will consume all good”, and so on.
However, once again, execution is flawed, and it’s like a 3-4 quests worth of information. So, not only flawed but also stories are few and far between.
gl hf
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Explain this, and don’t even try to picture helya as innocent. Everything on the table and then start explanation why this is a dangerous logic.
Because one was a victim before its no excuse for terrible deeds thereafter to absolutly true innocent people either
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Well, obviously Helya is too far gone at this point to not attempt to kill her (because the narrative frames her as incapable of redemption)… it’s the same reason I think Sylvanas should go.
But ignoring the crimes of Odyn because it is convenient and whoever he wronged is now dead is not really worthy of so-called “champions” or whatever the narrative tries to frame us as. It is for similar reasons that it is dangerous in real life. A person who gets away with such crimes cannot be an ally- it will be a matter of time before they justify using the same methods on you.
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I was talking about the narrative framing. They can have her be brought to justice, and not in the manner done so (which is pretty clearly sexism-coded). They can also simultaneously have Odyn be killed. It isn’t a one-way street.
Having Odyn face no consequences and having her repeatedly beaten and silenced (after crazy rants) is poor framing considering the reasons that led her to the path she’s on.
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You forget to say that helya was not a person but a living weapon of the titans with only one purpose: Defend the worldsoul.
Odyn was placed as wielder of this weapon, by the creatiore of both and the only difference was
…he was a stronger weapon…with the same purpose
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Wow i cant believe you would resort to this. What is a person?
A person (plural people or persons ) is a being that has certain capacities or attributes such as reason, morality, consciousness or self-consciousness, and being a part of a culturally established form of social relations such as kinship, ownership of property, or legal responsibility.
Atleast thats a commonly accepted wikipedia definition. I’m pretty sure Helya fits the bill. Psychologically speaking, there is 0 doubt she is a person.
WHO F***ING CARES
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Indeed.
If I see two massive armies, with Helya on the other side and Odyn on mine… ugh. I would wish to obliterate him before anything.
It seems like a narrative written by Fratbro culture that values forcing Odyn’s soul goosing because he did it first? Helya might be bad, but I want her to see Odyn pay for his crimes, at least
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Both are robots…nothing else.
If we destroy a robot, is this murdering womans/peoples because they have a female voice? Don’t make me laugh
Your logic seems to suggest that because Odyn is true to his evil design, that he is correct. While Helya is a “Bad Robot”, even if her stance was more benevolent.
I don’t see why that matters. Maybe they both were designed with faults, and Odyn failed to over come what Helya overcame - so he destroyed her.
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Lest we forget, all of humanity, the dwarves, and gnomes started out as ‘just robots’ in the WoW setting. In this case I’d be careful before I went around dismissing robots and denying them personhood.
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You presume this answer is so obvious, but if you followed machine learning/robotics research you would know that robots are this close to having a full “personality”. Someday when they do have sentience and the will to live on their own terms, it might just be a crime to murder/enslave them. Ideas are “crazy” until they aren’t anymore, that’s how civilisation works.
Either way, Helya isn’t a robot, she is a person. She doesn’t fit the bill of being an automated predetermined robot, simply because she has the sentience and will to make her own decisions. And neither is Odyn, who actively chose to enslave and transform his non-robot subjects who resisted his will.
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If Nathanos can be killed by Tyrande mid rant and not be considered sexist the same should be allowable to female characters.
We literally let Aszhara walk free just because she helped us against our N’zoth problems. As it is right now we didnt kill Odyn/attempt to kill him because thus far he hasnt directly wronged us.
I’d also point out he was trapped in the Hallsof Valor for 10,000 years. Not exactly consequence free.
Except Odyn is not in the picture right now. Helya decided to take out her anger on random third parties and has tortured innocent souls along the way. She deserve what the Primus(who she was attacking) did to her.
If you are truly interested in gender equality then a person’s gender should not be used to justify horrible behavior.
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We actually do, his name is Ner’zhul.
A man who had his peoples faith, health, and ancestors exploited against him to commit his people to something horrific; only to realize too late the horrible mistake he made. Made into the powerless pet of his own traitorous protégé, and then slowly driven insane by his own guilt and desperation to atone. Until he ultimately was corrupted by the very same skull of Gul’dan and tortured/twisted into the First Lich King.
I wonder. How has the lore handled HIS tragedy?
EDIT: And also, like … pretty sure the Jailor idea was at least flirted with back in early Legion, and the Primus is a being of Titan tier … there is no reason to believe he can’t deal with a corrupted Titan Keeper. Also, Zovaal’s entire gimmick up until this point has been to work through proxy forces that seem to believe HE is a means to THEIR ends. What on earth suggests that he isn’t going to “Arrow in his Quiver” all of them hard the moment he gets what he wants out of then? Just like he did Denathrius?
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I meant a scenario where the Male and female were reversed. Also, it’s not equivalent when we’re fighting and killing the people who enslaved him.
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Yeah, I don’t think Nathanos’s end can really compare to Helya or Sylvanas. His defining characteristics were mainly just his big mouth and his inability to properly express his love for Sylvanas / accept it in return. The whole undead trauma is part of his story, and it certainly affected him, but I think it was more of a backdrop for who he was, instead of it wholly making up his character.
So Tyrande interrupting his final words with a steel hickey doesn’t really compare, in my opinion.
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OK, and I meant that Ner’zhul’s treatment is fairly similar to Helya’s here.
And we are also fighting, and apparently destroying the soul of, Nerzhul in the upcoming raid. We are not JUST fighting those that enslaved him and drove him to madness … we’re fighting him. Helya is merely getting banished, which means there could still be a resolution for her and Odyn down the line … its just not in this moment. She is also a villain, lets not question that. Its just Odyn is also a dick.
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Cringe, dumb, problematic, ugly, and wrong.
? No they have blood. Metal skin but they have magical blood. Ergo Raden.
Except Nathanos was a Simp and Helya is a complicated sexual assault metaphor
Not even vaguely comparable
And we don’t save him either
If it had been revealed the Tarragrue was Nathanos and Sylvanas made him that it would’ve been
But alas
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